THE VILLAGE PEOPLE & THE EFFECTIVE HYPNOTIC MASTERED CLASS OF LIFE…. ¿¿
As one with some vested interest in watching this particular assembly, I am reminded of the indoctrinations of years ago – through the once equally psychologically saavy CJ Mahaney who reigned over the now defunct Sovereign Grace Ministries with one of their many franchises throughout North America right here in Langley BC also now defunct, not to forget the occasionally cross pollinated /promoted Mark Driscoll as well of the once “mighty” Mars Hill, two similar empires of which few christians and or congregants understand the dynamics of what took place – possibly revisiting & repeating itself on another generation through this near identical $30M “centre of ‘gospel’ excellence” kingdom. A number of things can not go unsaid as one goes beyond the cliche of “hoping and praying” for awareness and a change of culture that will hopefully mitigate harm and abuse that so easily ensnares patriarchal church cult(ures).
It’s Christmas 2018 and it’s quite clear, the more things ‘change’ – and the more information at our fingertips – the more they inevitably and unbelievably remain the same in the world of evangelical indoctrination. I’m not one to want to present this opinion piece (based on many experienced realities and facts over my years within “church family” life) this close to Christmas Day yet these “teachings” are being intentionally hammered equally during a season that is usually about Jesus being the “Reason for the Season”. Soon this season will pass and we will enter a new year with what may be more berating, group level shaming and fundraising campaigns towards the goal of obtaining $12M, $20M, $30M or however many tax exempt millions for “Jesus’ ” “mission”. The same Jesus being celebrated as God incarnate this time of year humbly and strategically given birth to and housed in a stall amidst farm animals not a palace of nobility.
I have experienced this kind of disguised pulpit compulsion many times over the years with examples that would defy the ears, eyes and most importantly the boundaries of normal thinking people outside those cult(ures), yet while marinated in it I and hundreds of others accepted it as normative “gospel truth”.
With regard to some specific statements made (quoted below) on the December 9th sermon this practice of monitoring giving reports has been our experience with at least one of our several former SGM church (Sovereign Grace Ministries now Sovereign Grace Churches) pastors – it would not surprise me if this was a pastoral level staff practice and discussion behind closed door “strategy meetings” in our case a few short years ago – now in Vancouver who also monitored ‘reports’ of what people gave. So what happens when the pastor is questioned, challenged or confronted with matters of in-house “sin” or blatant improprieties – financial or otherwise – amongst leadership regarding behaviour, speech, cover-ups, conduct or practice?
As our former SGM pastor did, will his ( Mark Clark ’s) Village Church “report” of those who “give” be reviewed first to determine whether an individual is being “mature” (giving generously & “killing it”) thus in good standing (with Mark) OR an “infant” (giving nothing or next to nothing & berated) based on their “giving report”? – thus near completely eviscerating 2 Corinthians 9:7-9 which appears to be intended for the support of the poor amongst them at the time. And therefore depending on where one falls on a leaders subjective and arbitrary ratio of apparent “known income” vs “giving” will they then only be entitled to a hearing and given an audience to air their serious “mature” (as redefined by Mark) concerns, experiential abuses, grievances or even criminal reporting that could be detrimental to the church, its “mission” and its support only based on consistent giving assessment records that are, once again, “mature” according to their conflicted overreaching purview?
In our church example when a serious fiduciary breach of trust question was raised by a congregant after a period of time of giving the “pastoral team” the benefit of the doubt and “reserving judgement”, the response (in addition to a “pastoral team” collusion NDA stance) by one of our pastors at the time – Fred Eaton – was to first have the audacious arrogance to ask what happened to ones level of giving. Not an answer, explanation or even a reasonable justification. Evidently our “pastoral (toxic) team” was unable to perceive that their compromised leadership infighting and abuse of authority was the reason everything was crumbling around them including his entitled expectation of continued membership “giving”.
A very conflict of interest posture and disastrous precedence if and when “sin” eventually engulfs the camp beginning from the top. A seriously faulty foundation and compromising misguided “application” to be building “the church” on.
After over 25 years of being in these environments 15 of which were indirectly under the “apostolic leadership” of the corrupt, virtually defrocked (by the thousands of congregants who chose to pay attention–uncovering their eyes–ignoring the relentless shaming “gossip & slander” IM propaganda campaigns from many of their SGM trained pastors including the pastors at Crossway Church at the time) CJ Mahaney & Assocs and his empire of Sovereign Grace Ministries churches and their devoted local pastors, the so called “gifted” charismatic similarities with Mark are uncanny and one to watch closely and carefully.
Mark’s brash pulpit tongue lashing & mansplaining style which has its strange appeal to growing numbers – who look to be told how to live & endure a sense of satisfying penance that comes out of a brow beating sermon – because “we’re serious about our faith here at Village church” isn’t much different to what drew so many (as it did me and several others back in 1998) to CJ’s SGM – now shrinking – US empire (through what was dreamt to be their Canadian HQ hub through Tony Walsh & Pat Sczebel’s now respectively defunct Redemption Hill Church & Crossway Church) and is also very similar in delivery to Mark Driscoll of the once mighty also defunct Mars Hill empire & ethos.
For the record several SGM “taught” pastors also initially disassociated themselves with CJ’s leadership and SGM. However for several of them disassociating from CJ’s toxic and deceptive SGM culture didn’t necessarily reduce harm to congregations or change all they had either learned through the “pastors college” or picked up and observed through convenient patriarchal elitist “bro” cult(ure) associations with the once mighty and lauded “A Team” – self declared Apostolic Team – or simply unchecked & innately possessed through disassociative NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) survivalist seige behaviours.
An entire book could be written by the professionals I read and follow on the ingenious psychological delivery, cleverly guided transitions and perceived mentally inescapable projections presented in this ENTIRE sermon alone never mind the many others that are pumped out by this kind of “ministry”.
And having walked through 3 near identical church cult(ures) all of which were different denominational “brands”and watched others walk through these cultures, I have no issues discussing or standing alone on this assertion that often despite the denomination the leaderships survivalist siege (IM) culture is almost identical. Period.
Because speech matters, sometimes it’s helpful to see a small sample in writing.
Regarding “taking it out of context”, please go ahead and listen to the whole sermon link provided above and assess what normal is, what is concerning and where ‘Jesus’ is found if at all.
(this is approx at the 14:30-18:40 minute mark)
“We are going to need money in the new year to create. We are upping our budget to 8.2 8.3 million dollars, which means a 12% increase which means all of us need to actually give 12% more than we did last year in order to make the mission happen.”
“And I got a report of the giving and I looked, and to be honest guys some of you it’s like praise God you’re being generous you’re killing it I love you, you’re great.”
“So many of you are giving like almost nothing or nothing which means you’re non contributing zeros.”
“You are simply sucking resources like a baby in a towel. You’re ‘making us’ keep the lights on, pay people, do technology so we can reach as many people for Jesus as possible. And you sit here and consume and give nothing or you give pittance, because I know what you make. And I know what I make and what I give, you don’t want the pastor out giving you ten times over. That, you’re a loser if that’s your case.” (strange and appropriately awkward pause before providing so called “options” to your now cleverly framed dilemma around a Bible verse that has NO direct reference whatsoever to “your money”)
Though the optics may be nobly convincing, why should it even matter when a pastor states that he’s giving 10 times 20 times or 50 times more than you when he’s simply giving into a closed loop system to which he is most likely a primary financial beneficiary and a power stakeholder. In other words he is “giving” virtue signalling amounts to the same trough from which he feeds. Unlike you, the “sacrificial giver” encouraged to give “sacrificially” “especially when it may hurt” (commonly used terminology from churches I once attended) ensuring maximum return (on “unintended” guilt projections) and maximum proof of “mature” (as just laid out or framed by Mark’s interpreted standards) commitment. As a pastor is he not simply reinvesting cash into the “business” trough that was and is originally obtained through you using these types of measures and tactics that supposedly Jesus is “making us” do? Then entitled to collecting a tax exempt status receipt and applicable clergy housing deductions yet using such broadcasting of nobility (quite the extreme opposite of Matthew 6) as a point for the “unintended” (once again, as was often stated as a justifying qualifier at previous churches I attended) projection of guilt and leveraging of virtue against the large and untapped giving potential of the “infant” “non-contributing zero” and “loser”.
It would appear that it may be time that another consideration be given as to what side of the proverbial pulpit, demanding “infant” like behaviours can be found.
Regarding the above follow up message December 16th, I very much appreciate the issue of addressing “sin” through the process laid out in Matthew 18:15-17. This message “taught” frequently in the churches in my past often refer to how to “biblically” resolve recurring “sin” and offense amidst the congregation or how it’s to be practiced. Once again listen to the sermon for the full context. It is relatively benign until he begins talking about “judgements” at about the 25:20 mark. As I’ve said earlier, another curious topic for the lead up to the coming Christmas celebrations. Often an indicator of impression management (IM, a term from Wade Mullen’s excellent book) tactics lobbed like spaghetti at a fan from pulpits in an attempt to manage issues that, so far, are well hidden from the congregation in the hopes of keeping it behind the scenes.
Yet to this day around the subject of Matthew 18:15-17 the challenge experienced is that when these offenses & sins clearly involve paid leadership or pastors and or their “faithfully loyal” supporters/ enabling validation minions they often surround themselves with, because of livelihoods, idolatrous reputations and all that is often at stake, rarely are the steps followed or taken seriously triggering a barrage of significant pushback, and significant threat, hardship, humiliation and anguish for the individual or individuals attempting to bring these truths up the chain of command. Pushback that grows in intensity both from the pulpit (as the potential in these two recent and curious “sermons”) and behind closed doors. And the church of Jesus Christ through such unrepentant and or unaddressed activity now becomes an environment of pretense and hidden toxic defensiveness, divisiveness and seige factions as was in our case.
As their one two punch follow up to the previous weeks “message” amidst what normally is the Christmas season lineup, what has been stated at this weeks message by Ken are what could very easily be added building blocks of what has been known to be a potential incubator for a culture of hidden and covered up abuse and arrogant abuses of authority with numerous universal church examples over recent years, despite his – Ken’s – numerous passing qualifying honourable mentions of not “sweeping things under the table”. BTW the above audio link to the tragic story of what can happen in some church cultures only scratches the surface by way of “remedies and safeguards” with little discussion in what should have been an extensive conversation and open round table about the ways in which their doctrines and behaviors regularly contributed to direct and indirect ongoing victimization through therapeutic and profound but convenient “biblical” psychological denials, ignorance and a toxic culture of mounting wilfully permitted “leadership” arrogance. (a discussion that hopefully maybe was held during the unrecorded Q&A period)
When “judgements” are to be “prayed” about and people are encouraged (strongly weighted by closed loop “biblical interpretation”) to literally “wait for God” to be the One to make judgements on what may be happening right in front of them, then their (hearers and members) ability to bring about accountability is effectively cut off. By the way who gets to be the qualified patriarchal statesman representative ”for god” to verify that God eventually has indeed made His judgement eluded to as the people “wait for God to judge” as instructed? Let me guess?
And will the final interpretation of “god’s judgement” that hundreds were instructed to “wait for god” on somehow miraculously be in favour of the leaderships preferred survivalist outcome irrelevant of what may have been said or what harm or denial of justice it may be causing a victimized member or members? When in actuality their (hearers and members) outspokeness could be the very means God is wanting to use to expose what is all to often being hidden and or accepted as normal behaviour. Because how the hell does God work to effect change including appropriate checks and balances on leaders (especially religious leaders often known for being self governed unchecked entities almost irrelevant what board may exist) other than THROUGH PEOPLE, the very people who have just been instructed to, in effect, keep quiet, make no judgements unless we concur, “pray and wait for God” to bring about needed “judgement”. Nonsense, or more appropriately that sounds like cult like bullshit.
Look to the last 30 years (or even longer) of any religious cultures that went awry and at the foundation of how things went on unchecked for so long is this amongst many other thought management techniques and “trust us teachings” that were weighted down with their “word of god” qualifiers on people who truly and genuinely wanted to please God. Believing that the path to achieving God’s pleasure often led only through the thick uncharted yet strangely unpleasant jungles of favoritism, fear, obedience and unwavering loyalty to leaders which could then lead to the religiously addictive & coveted bonus of being noticed then obtaining a leadership acknowledged “mature” – as already previously defined by Mark Clark – upstanding church reputation. One does not have to look far in time or history to see a multitude of comparable “secular” organizational examples of similar kowtowing cultures, even as recent as last week.
Once again, I heard very similar “messages” for years to only later discover the many things that were actually going on as hundreds were being submissively obedient to their pastors branded interpretations of “God’s word” by “not making judgements” while well hidden abuses, damage control management of various kinds took place with dissenters and victims alike, kept out of view and awareness of the congregation as a whole till things eventually come to a mental health management boiling point.
And it’s the oldest trick in the book of creative “leadership” interpretations (‘lifted’ from the Bible then validated by countless sausage factory publication oligarch think tanks such as The Gospel Coalition “leadership” and their army of writers and reviewers) and a sure and effective damage control measure to stave off current or future damage to a growing $8.3M dollar consumption machine and empire. Many church leadership business models small or large use these plays effectively and repeatedly throughout the year till it’s clear, understood and obediently followed by the collective. Yet next to nobody ever openly talks about these practices and so many evangelical church leaders are adverse to open transparent discussion never mind openly answering well articulated questions that may leave them culpable or even improve and prove the health indicator of their church culture.
With regard to who seems freely able to make “judgements” oddly enough will there be any discussion, reversal, repentance or back peddling with Mark Clark’s December 9th “sermon” containing categorically damning “judgements” of the “petri dish of sexual tension” and “it’s just animals in a zoo” levelled at an entire Cactus Club employee and clientèle organization? At which point will sermons freely made available to the public finally be freely scrutinized for what they really are at times based on the words spoken? In my experience likely not and will these men even be questioned by a crowd that openly laughs and dismisses such categorically & damningly judgmental indictments as humorous “Bro” banter? All the while suffering from cognitive dissonance claiming that we (committed faithful Christians) are the one’s called to bring Jesus to these “enslaved” people or now “animals”. I pray members will and have questioned such cronyism or misguided church leadership. Openly disparaging (bordering on bigoted mockery) declarations made in the “safe” confines of such collective hive gatherings about men and women, boys and girls that frequent real world social gatherings for work and pleasure who deserve to be addressed with dignity. Some of which I know and many of which my kids know, and a location or franchise comprising of real people my wife and I along with friends frequent appreciating the food and service.
Having experienced and done much reading on this form of (IM) leadership, the greater concern is if this is the accepted public persona when displeasure is expressed, as with Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, James MacDonald and so many others including our local now disbanded “pastorate”, then what, pray tell, is being expressed behind closed doors when displeasure is being meted out on whistleblower vulnerable employees and even more vulnerable, labelled “troublemaking” church members facing mental health harm themselves or on behalf of others they are advocating for?
Mark Clark’s statements followed by Ken’s strong admonition clearly beg the question of what kind of imaginary, unaware, perversely arrogant, overreaching and all to often unreal world and entitled bubble do we as christians live in, self righteously cut off, aloof and completely adversely contrarian to Jesus’ teaching and clear example?
Consider the undeniable insights regularly brought to light by Wade Mullen regarding where an organization can find itself over time as they endeavour to satisfy the machine of “ministry” and their personal egos and cravings at any cost (my words, not his).
His Twitter feed offers critical information to those wanting or willing to participate in their own mental well-being and the well-being of others WHILE in a “Church family” in short form bites of profound deeply researched truths and realities. While his now publicly available full dissertation is a powerful study and research piece on the practices and affects of impression management (IM) church cultures and how they can easily evolve, if you feel that something just isn’t right (btw they often will encourage you to jettison your feelings about matters, an innate God given tool of intuition). His dissertation can be obtained and downloaded for free at this link:
Peel the onion of spiritual subjugation (the antithesis of the Cross of Christ) that is more about managing the WAY YOU THINK, WHAT TO THINK & HOW TO THINK meant to release the “resources” for the “Mission” “Jesus” is “making us do”. Having been within these walls for decades it’s important to understand IT’S NOT SOLELY YOUR FAULT having openly trusted what is rarely the church any more.
***In light of alleged financial practices within our local government with what seemed like stringent accountability structures, make no mistake, the parallels are no different in the world of many (not all) tax exempt religious organizations.
Yet rarely are the financial practices scrutinized without a sense of fear or intimidating retorts and or retribution in what is known as a “church family” provided you even get past collusive non disclosure agreements as was our case.
In fact the highly unregulated or worse yet, self regulated world of “non-profit” organizations needs to be regularly audited by a professional 3rd party secular firm almost yearly for the multiple jetsetting “conferences”, exchange speaking circuits along with golf outings almost unequivocally in temperate climates with the coveted amenities and $pice of life indulgences ie California, Arizona, Texas maybe Hawaii. (in my years of experience usually meant having “friendly” symbiotic guest speakers coming in to address the congregation doing the dirty work of admonishing the “local church commitment” primarily along the lines of long term financial commitment to the church while the local pastor does the same favour in exchange in his church with compensatory benefits in return for each as well )
It would seem that churches in great need in the Yukon, Alaska, Alabama, and other less prominent or affluent church regions are simply SOL.
As with the allegations of retribution carried out by these two high profile men of the BC legislature, from our experience the fastest way to raise the ire of “pastoral leadership” is to dare to begin to question the specifics of spending and expensed items practices.
Accountability is the right of any doner/ parishioner whether they give $5 dollars a year (apparently considered a loser in some churches) or up to $14,000 dollars a year (apparently loved, “killing it” and mature.
Watch for the signs, it’s inevitable within typical evangelical patriarchal structure –
Faith, Freedom and Hope through the Mind for the Heart....thinking allowed 
Hi Rory
How is it going there? Merry Christmas to you and yours. Christ lives and is coming back for us, thank God. Says I need a password to read your current article?
Tx Dawn
From: Faith, Freedom and Hope through the Mind for the Heart….thinking allowed [mailto:comment-reply@wordpress.com] Sent: December-20-18 2:27 PM To: darob1@shaw.ca Subject: [New post] Something Is Wrong When Only Cash Flows Upward, While The Sludge of Matthew 18 ONLY Flows Downward
Hi Dawn,
Merry Christmas to you all too. He certainly lives and from all that continues to go on, His return is cause for hope while being here is still often a joy and experience.
At this point because I have skin in this particular write up while an “outsider”, it’s currently under review by others I’ve given access to. Nothing special really, just hope it still maintains the grade 3, 4 level and standard I’ve been known for. 😉
Dim, your writing, delivery and extrapolation of the challenges associated to the “AGT” and “AI” church reveals a clarity that I hope people will consider. I would suggest you have a book with all your experiences, that said, I appreciate your willingness to bring these issues into conversation.
Hi Greg, thanks for the feedback and encouragement. All my years of exposure to a lot of this has proven quite resourceful for me and I’m incredibly grateful for my kids being able to grow in understanding who they are mistakes and all amidst who the real Jesus is in all this murk and harmful sin focused self loathing confusion and culture.
I’m being told by growing (small) numbers over the years to consider writing a book, who knows what the future has. But I’m still formulating and trying to put pieces together as to how these kinds of cultures take and hold us captive despite all that we see.
Wade Mullen is a profoundly insightful gift and asset to the Body of Christ with regard to truth amidst the evangelical gauntlet.
Right now I settle for leaving breadcrumbs my children may one day better understand and appreciate as they navigate their journeys with many of these cultures and people groups along the way. 😊
Fascinating predictability. Plain old, and as old as time, fear mongering and taunting intimidation posturing. Never intending on going to trial, simply throwing spaghetti at the wall in the hopes that something sticks to stop the “sinful” “gossip and slanderers” in their tracks.
It’s great to see the Lord use men and women today to give, in essence, the deserved middle finger salute to the growing number of 21st century Pharisees and associated lemmings like He did on so many occasions to those infiltrating the 1st century church now overrun. Like the time He crouched and began drawing in the dirt when the religious mob lemmings wanted to “stone the sinner” and “non-contributing zero & loser” amongst them.
John 8:1-11 “he stood up and said to them,’Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.’ ” At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time (dropping their stones and frivolous lawsuits for fear of exposing their true state), the older ones first (understanding & knowing better, condemned by their own lives & foolish actions), until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you? “No one, sir,” she said. “Neither do I condemn you.” ”
There are MANY red flags LONG before this Tsunami warning of a frivolous lawsuit. Thank you to fearless journalists like Julie Roys as well as thousands of former members in hundreds of churches who also “straightened up” to face the Pharisees of today.
“It seems Harvest’s decision to drop the suit was motivated by a desire to suppress the truth and maintain its secrets,” she said.
Journalist Julie Roys. Courtesy photo
Roys called on (James) MacDonald and Harvest to apologize and reimburse defendants for their legal fees — and on every church leader who was part of “this unbiblical lawsuit” to resign.
Bryant and Mahoney also posted an open letter Tuesday to MacDonald and Harvest on their website, asking them to pay for legal fees and other bills pertaining to this suit. The bloggers called on MacDonald and Harvest to publicly apologize for including the two men’s wives, Sarah Bryant and Melinda Mahoney, in the suit, and they said the church should apologize for lying to Harvest members.
“As you, James, have so often taught in the past, resolution and reconciliation means far more than merely offering words,” they wrote. “It requires concrete acts of repentance that demonstrate the fruit of the spirit and the sincerity of the words beings offered.”
https://religionnews.com/2019/01/08/harvest-bible-chapel-a-suburban-chicago-megachurch-drops-lawsuit-against-bloggers-writer/
Absolutely true and powerfully enlightening…. IF we are willing and want to see MORE than we desire to be relished, praised or given a false sense of belonging in a world or “family” that can be fundamentally altered when the slightest of tremors threatens their faulty structure built on a flimsy house of (debit) cards.
This below is savage fire.. 🔥🔥
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Powerful truth around critical self awareness I now cherish and wish I had heard so many years ago while imbedded within these types of abusive and verbally toxic NPD church cultures.
Empathy, compassion and vulnerability any of which when not accompanied with boundaries, leads to disrespect, manipulation and harm to the soul.
Do the hard work and set boundaries that safeguard your soul and preserves dignity, then teach your children to live in that space all their days.
And yes I’m convinced that Jesus was the consummate example of having boundaries that preserve, self respect and keen self awareness that was not concerned with the opinions of others. Qualities crucial to carry out the monumental task he had before him so many years ago… qualities we need in this life also when engaged with potentially harmful people groups.
“Boundaries are respect” Brene Brown (get yours)
https://www.theworkofthepeople.com/boundaries
Amazing writing here. I’ve been scouring the web trying to find writing on people making sense of the Village. I mean, why don’t we just begin by writing about the horrifying “rock concert” worship and how the sermons are all in the dark with smoke? I mean, what in the world are people getting out of this? And you should also write about their piece of you know what youth group. “Bring your friends”–coz you won’t make friends at Village Church!
Thank you for your comments.
I understand what you are saying and have seen that type of transition for years. However through our near 30 year experience my interest is not so much writing about church antics and their vanity projects, but the roots, practices and eventual outcomes of often deep seated, unquestioning loyalties that lead to abusive cut and cover cult(ures).
Very few current or former church attending Christians and “layman” congregation members talk openly about these issues that I can almost guarantee are gnawing questions in the back of their minds or conscience, but because of regular teachings like this simply brush these inner intuitions aside as “sinful”, divisive, judgemental etc. Exactly as taught (and hoped) thereby regularly mitigating the potential for damage caused to the church’s reputation thus, once again through Impression Management, ensuring and preserving livelihoods and lasting job security.
While potential untold harm, abuses, or coverups can easily be taking place in this type of hidden don’t ask don’t tell conditioned patriarchal “teaching environment”.
Behaviours that in “secular” society would be openly challenged and addressed far more seriously and vigorously.
Keep asking questions and if you see or hear something, say something. You never know who you may be empowering that find themselves in a vulnerable power disadvantaged position. 😊
Yes, what you’re saying is correct, it’s like bad policy results in bad action. I agree with what you’res saying–like in youth group, our teen is expected to bring “friends”–like let’s just break that down a bit. She’s going to church to develop Christian character but she’s supposed to bring her own friends. So, I did ask the youth leader what’s the strategy behind that? I told them that quite frankly I would be embarrassed to bring our non-Christian friends into that poop soup. Coz if a Christian kid can’t make Christian friends at Church, but is expected to bring in her own tribe of friends, what type of sick manipulation is that? Now, we happen to know mostly non-Christians, which is why we are trying to go to Church, so our kids can meet other Christians. Yet, try as we might, you can’t meet other Christian kids at youth group. So, why do they want them to continually bring their friends? To meet some type of evangelism target? To make things easier? Like honestly what is driving that thinking? As an aside, in that sermon you quote above Mark Clark says to the congregation that they should “go somewhere else to be entertained” (right). So, I mean, that’s manipulative too–the whole thing is set up to be entertaining, and yet he chastises the people for just wanting to be “entertained.” You can’t expect good Christian behaviour to flow out of an environment that doesn’t take good behaviour seriously. It all goes together. So, the antics are important and they drive the abuse–coz they don’t really want people there who ask too many questions. Coz you know #obvie. Having said that we just would like to find a decent youth group but they don’t seem to exist.
Yes, that “go somewhere else to be entertained” is simply a ruse played to give the impression that he is far more concerned about being serious about our faith here at Village Church than he is about your “giving”, oh and btw you are “losers” and “infants” sucking on a towel because you aren’t giving enough.
It’s a calculated gamble to come across as a church that “doesn’t need your money” which inevitably garners more loyalty and brings more financial benefit because of the impressive appearances of serious faith and a church and “pastor” that is willing to say things that (on the surface) appear as not benefitting the bottom line.
See what I’m talking about?
They have strategy meetings about much of what is said that you would never imagine takes place. Not much different than corporate culture, yet they or their motives (to which they cry “sinful” judgements if challenged) can’t be scrutinized because of privileged separation of church and state along with a doting and loyal corral of surrogates around the leadership.
I’ve seen it all.
There is a better way.
Simply grow with your family, seek out new, safe and healthy interdependent relationships that don’t pledge allegiance to “church life” and blind “followerships” (most would never see or let alone admit that is what they are doing but their practice betrays that denial). Often times those “committed” to “church life” and promoting such commitments are compromised by their love of leadership favour and recognition and the stellar reputation it may bring even from the pulpit while no one really know these people and who they really are behind the scenes. Unpaid leadership in church environments I liken to that of ‘your best Instagram life’.
Many churches today only survive by creating a counterfeit interdependency (which is in reality an unhealthy codependent brand of Christianity that boasts a counterfeit freedom) for which many feel they cannot remove themselves from without the risk of “God’s disapproval” or falling out of His favour. Thereby over many years and “teachings” along those lines conditions the minds (of those who really want to follow Christ) psychologically to feel they should never remove themselves or their children or their faith is at jeopardy. That is hogwash and codependent BS which in the end keeps them all employed when there are no other options to earn similar salaries “in the real world”.
i love your writing, i am so glad I discovered what you are saying today! it’s a blessing. it’s really tough as you do want Christian community especially for your kids, the more liturgical churches that we adore are very skinny on young people. i’m so glad you are speaking out. tbh, for those of us who are from secular environments, you can see the manipulation plain as day. my teenager was coming home complaining of how they keep trying to sell her “merch”–you keep scratching your head wondering why other people aren’t complaining–imagine teachers in a public high school trying to sell “merch”, right? people would be outraged. and also, let’s just talk about what I think Jesus would have to say about Mark Clark’s wife using the sacred mantle of the pastoral role as a launching site for making $$$$$ off her shopsweetmarket–doesn’t get more manipulative than that, IMO? but what you’re saying about the strategies is super fascinating. like i’m going to go back and read everything you’ve said again. this is some sick, sick, sick business. keep writing!
I’m sorry for the position you find yourself in with your kids. We went through much of the same and found it profoundly much healthier to “lose” many of the “friends” we had over 15 years than to be mired in such mental health, exhausting pay to play church culture. We found that many youth groups (probably not all) are merely toxic social clubs to hang out and often get in more trouble (which then adds the “sin” and guilt mental health trauma) than if you just hung out with other trusted families with similar aged children. It’s definitely not an easy road.
We kept in touch with a few dear friends who were also “Dones” and had had enough of toxic church cultures after we said we were done. Several of our 4 kids were even astute enough to see and understand what we were doing and thanked us for removing the family from that cult(ure).
There are many great resources that are far more healthier available to people now that provide so much good quality insight and understanding that many church pastors are too uneducated and or exude simpleton reductionistic ideologies for complex human issues that I believe the Bible touches on but they have no clue of how to interlace it with proven modern psychology. Buying into the archaic notion that anything to do with modern understanding of the human makeup is of no value with the assumption that “trusting Jesus” is all that’s required. Which clearly and conveniently sets themselves up as the ONLY “official” curators of truth and “counsel” within the heavily fortified bubble they keep their followers and congregants in. I doubt even Jesus thinks that or would sanction such ignorance. Only thereby revealing how unqualified they are to be telling or “counselling” anyone how to live.
We’ve seen and heard more harm enter people’s lives (including marriages) with stories of – simpleton Jesus – “pastoral counselling” than I care to talk about. Because of much of what the church teaches today we sell ourselves short in thinking we (unlike the Bereans who showed themselves as capable) are incapable of understanding Bible truths therefore we need a Pastor of Administration, an Executive Pastor, a Lead Pastor, a Pastor of Discipleship, a Pastor of Worship, a Pastor of Mission Strategy, a Pastor of Young Adults etc (btw those are all real “positions” and salaried positions), you probably get what I mean.
Look for friends who are Dones and hang out, yes the circle of “friends” is smaller but not much different than when were surrounded by hundreds in a “church family”, which it often isn’t.
A resource that helped a lot at the beginning of our recent journey was from a former pastor who lays it all out in a book titled Finding Church – Wayne Jacobsen (who also was behind the “blasphemous” well known and fascinating book – and the movie – we read called The Shack from a few years ago. Our “discerning pastors” tried to “instruct” and discourage people from reading that book but of course we don’t listen to people who have the audacity to try and censor what people read, especially pastors LOL)
There is an audio version of Finding Church and you may very well enjoy it and find it refreshing after so much nonsense and possible trauma. 😊🙏🏽
Cheers
Rory
BTW I’m not in any way connected to that book Finding Church that I often promote when people are in the throws of church trauma. It’s just a good read… period. 😊
Thank you so much. I will read that book.
This is what is plaguing much of today’s evangelical church.
Normalized and accepted conformity, irrelevant of what codependent absurdities are being “fed” from power advantaged pulpits.
And here’s a humorous look at how it often works. I’ve been there and watched these processes unfold before my eyes, when I was too unaware to understand these types of cult(ures), after all “It’s church, it’s awesome and the ‘lord’ is doing amazing things”.
For the mental health of ourselves and our children, look closer behind the curtains and ask more questions and when necessary… pull back the curtain.
Yes, very good! Now I understand why they need the black services and the smoke–can’t have anyone making eye contact and raising eyebrows, right? I honestly have not made it through many services there, the services literally turn my stomach. I have wondered why so many people are willing to sit there in the dark though. Quite honestly, IMO, Mark Clark is all over the place–name dropping people like Malcolm Gladwell and pretending to be offering people a Christianity that is culturally relevant, yet participating/creating one of the most materialistic and shallow expressions of Christianity I personally have born witness to yet. In one sermon I actually made it through Mark Clark stated something about “hating” Christian culture–yet, he perpetuates it, participates it, expands it. He’s so “radical”, right? But yes, I’m beginning to see the strategy here, is Village spiritual? is it not? they keep you guessing and in the dark, so you’ll come back. Very interesting.
Well said.
I write/ document the antics of the pastors I once knew and all the manipulative baggage they continue to regurgitate upon their congregation because it’s only a matter of time before these cult(ures) begin to unravel both internally within leadership and then into the pews. Eventually exhibiting much of the harm and inevitable “sin” (they love to project on their listeners) I write about in the various blogs here from all the (hobby) reading and research I follow about cult or cult like religious groups. And if anyone can see a little more clearly through these stories of what is often actually happening behind the scenes before they get too far into becoming victimized, hurt or assimilated and help their family then I’m grateful.
Many of today’s hierarchies of church structure are built on so called “unintended” obligation, fear, “impressive” high level association (as you noted name dropping), destructive congregational deprecating doctrines (“you are the worst of sinners deserving of nothing” with Jesus through “the church family” being the only place to find peace or solace from such nonsense) and lip service to “grace” except when it applies to themselves.
Discussion around your experience is enlightening and helpful.
Thank you
It is peculiar, I think, too, just how popular Mark Clark has become given his atheistic roots. Evangelical culture is based on nepotism and cronyism these days. Nearly impossible to be popular in evangelical circles without family connections if we’re being honest, right? So, how did Mark Clark rise to the top like this? I grew up with in an atheistic family and I have been reminded at every turn that I am “wrong”–so, how did he accomplish this? Does his wife have connections? He is also from back East and we all know how hard the West Coast can be to break into. I don’t believe for a second that Mark Clark hates Christian culture, he is the embodiment of the very worst of Christian culture in this very moment, but IMO he’s the ultimate hypocrite (if he truly grew up in a non-Christian family and alongside non-Christians) in that he would know *exactly* how outsiders view the Church in this moment in history. Was he truly ever an atheist? Interestingly, I have seen more than one fairly earnest Christian converted male in ministry brought low by a very gifted super “Christian” evangelical wife who grew up in the system. More than ever these pastor’s wives aren’t just hosting ladies’ Bible studies and bringing meals to new moms. These pastor’s wives often lament how hard it is to be a pastor’s wife–eclipsed by their husband’s mantle, poor things–yet piggyback on his popularity. They seem to often teach hubby how to play the game. We are supposed to feel *very sorry indeed* for poor, poor hard-done-by pastor’s wives these days, and thus excuse them for selling sweatshirts, or promoting their businesses, or whatever it is, through hubby. They *totally* want to have their cake and eat it too. (On an aside, how TOTALLY insulting is to non-Christians or the unChurched or whatever they care called these days, that evanegelicals THINK that all non-Christians want is these slick, sleazy Church services filled with merch and smoke machines. Like non-Christians aren’t smart enough to figure out that the Gospel is way more meaningful than one of most horrifying hours they will ever spend? One time I brought some non-Christian friends to this type of service and traumatized them all. They said they would never, ever set foot in a Church every again. And I agree.)
Another relevant insight from @wademullen (an independent resource worth following)
This particular twitter post describes experiences to be aware of and be very wary of.
A key red flag indicator that happens especially in religious environments where accountability is at its lowest because “god” (in their minds) directs their decisions. Environments where self confidence and self awareness of many can usually or already are at all time lows as life decisions are often made through the influences of pulpit teachings and personal “counselling” making it more difficult to notice these misdirections that Wade Mullen references.
Explain to me if this is within the bounds of CRA–pastor’s wife, pastor’s wife of a mega church, she states on her insta she is a pastor’s wife, she states on insta she’s associated with Village. She promotes aggressively her own Christmas market–she states that if you love her you’ll come to her Christmas market? Why are people not calling her out on this? https://www.instagram.com/p/B3IIXYUAZTy/
That kind of potentially advantageous conflict of interest marketing I would not be clear on. However I certainly looked into what could be done regarding corrupt practices that, without question, took place at Crossway Church (now defunct) and many of their “pastoral team” during a so called church plant. An often convincing distracting practice that churches have used for decades when power struggles and infighting take centre stage. Anyways for any serious discussion around the matter or any similarities, we would have to talk in person. 😊😉
Yep, and I love how she says “partial proceeds” go to charity. That magic fairy dust works every time to justify the true god of the evangelicals: MATERIALISM.
I keep checking back to see if you have new blog posts. You should also write about “authentic living” and “freedom session”–like what is authentic living? i feel like there’s almost too much authentic living going on. “Authentic living” and “freedom session” show up at so many evangelical Churches.
You’re funny man. Go ahead and write about your experience and concerns. My focus is on the language of “gospel centered” codependent manipulation, grooming, conditioning, assimilation and control that pretty much has nothing to do with “Jesus” and far too much (if not exclusively) to do with religiously branded Bible interpretations for the purpo$e of lead funnelling.
Julie Roy nails it.
Seeing, acknowledging and extricating ones self from toxic faith, family, religious groups and codependent environments is critical to mental well-being. A highly recommended must listen video presentation from the noted Wade Mullen.
This was just put up today by the equally tenacious journalist Julie Roys who has had the spotlight on evangelical abuses for some time now.
This presentation is no simpleton ideology of the Jesus of present day “gospel centered” evangelical theism but a robust in-depth understanding of truths that uncover and lays bare the manipulations of many of today’s religious organizations. A perspective and depth of insight that Jesus himself often spoke of yet conveniently ignored and deflected by many of present day “pastors”, charlatans and power thirsty religious leadership of the current and last several generations.
Thank you Wade and Julie.
#nosceteipsum
#realworldrealfaith
#outgrowcodependency
#religiousabuse
#groupspeak
#beawareofscriptedhumility
#freeyourselffromreligiousobligation
#mentalhealth
#toxicfaith
#freedomofsoul
#jesusabsentfrommodernchristianity
#thepsychologyoftruthtelling
#abusersbendtrustawayfromotherstowardthemselves
#conditioningforexploitation
#groomingthroughutterdepravitydoctrines
#thegospelofselfloathing
https://julieroys.com/video-wade-mullen-on-how-to-spot-spiritual-abuse/
thank you for this i’ll spend some time looking at this over the holidays
Speak freely as you wish addressed to alphaltd@hotmail.com
you don’t need to post this but perhaps you could directly email us, i’d like to discuss something i’ve observed and i can’t write about it publicly–do you have an email account where we could talk to you? if so please send it to our email address below
I think there is something theologically really off at Village, I’m surprised it’s not raising more eyebrows (from conservative evangelicals). There’s an intensity to the theology and a major emphasis on “disobedience.” Sin is presented as “disobedience against God”–sin is of course that, but usually there’s also the talk on sin is hurting others, sin is acting without love. Big emphasis on “obedience.” Mark Clark is also often YELLING at people as they sit in the dark. There is a shocking shortage of craft supplies for the children in kids’ Church. The kids’ Church is somewhat bizarre too–if they don’t stand up and dance and jump around and worship they get in “trouble.” They have their own worship music. Like throughout Christmas not sure there’s been not a traditional carol. There’s no Christmas pageant. They are rather intense with the kids. It’s all very bizarre. Clinical, cold, and intense? What’s the appeal? Like why aren’t more people questioning if this is a cult? Marketing 100–tell people something is cool and they will believe it.
Hi Jake,
Thanks for engaging on the topic.
Unfortunately while in such closed loop environments where teaching is (in clever and subtle ways) considered as superior to other “churches”, they set themselves as the authorities of branded “gospel centered” truth interpretation.
With regular emphasis on “sin” and “disobedience”, “utter depravity”, and “you are the worst of sinners” ideology, the narrative of dissenting voices gets pushed into silence and drowned by all the parrotted teachings propogated throughout the congregation in homes, “small group” meetings, elitist leadership “vision casting” (executive) meetings etc. The voices and concerns of the handful who see something else afoot or in the making become demonized for “sinful disobedience toward god”.
Look at the history of CJ Mahaney (which we were a part of a local Langley franchise for about 14 years before their own actual uncovered sins and abuse rightfully unravelled their personal kingdom building efforts), Mark Driscoll and others and the similarities are near blinding but only when we are ready to see and admit that much of what we experienced wasn’t the gospel but well fabricated feelings of counterfeit spirituality. Spirituality that attempts to manipulate the emotions and heart while actively working to ensure that the mind is NOT engaged to critical thinking that could threaten the establishment that has been built.
IMO you’re absolutely right in your observances and gut feelings. Hope others consider your insights and see it as well before further oppressive and silencing harm occurs to individuals or families behind the ruse (damage control measures) of “protecting” god’s church against “the attacks of the devil”.
As you state there is something bizarre (that was us) that takes place that allows intelligent people who are labelled as “losers” for not “giving” sufficiently, and “loved” because they’re “killing it” in their giving to allow themselves to be manipulatively addressed in such ways without recognizing the abusive nature or ingratiating praise respectively of these codependent approaches.
Granted it is very possible that a brave few may have attempted to address this particular leadership (as many did over the years at the others I listed) and have paid a price for such attempts and opted to simply move on if they encountered the typical pride often harboured in such leadership cult(ures).
no doubt many want this specialized one-on-one financial “mentorship” https://thisisvillagechurch.com/location/langley-south/financialcourse/
Been there done that at the detriment of my own family, financial resources God intended for their benefit (my wife and kids and those in need or real and proven non-profits) but for years given to the church to the tune of $14K one year at our peak of “sacrificial giving” where fiscal accountability proved to be near corrupt under layers of nonspecific ambiguity.
I remember as part of “church membership” programs you would be “encouraged” to become committed “covenant members”, “partners” or “first fruits committed members” etc. depending on the denomination, aka social club membership status and access fees is what it often boils down to, but you won’t hear that from the leadership. Mark demonstrates that exactly in the sermon I speak to above.
I don’t doubt the Village Financial Mentorship Course will contain enough “financial management basics” to make it helpful and palatable, but eventually the notion of financial commitment “to god” aka conveniently “the church” or “how god wants us to use money” will raise its ugly head and your family ends up at the mercy of their “biblical interpretation” or risk being “in sin and rebellion” and even a “loser”. Arrogantly “challenging” people to leave if you are offended and don’t give. A hive mind, groupthink mentality meant to rally those who are “serious about their faith” that this is definitely the place to be because “he’s willing to offend people for the sake of the gospel”. Sadly an approach that works in many churches.
LOL, I challenge or dare them to teach the “course” without once inferring that people’s God given resources first and foremost and sacrificially belongs “to god“ (aka “his church” manipulative at best and deceptively coercive at worst) but instead work hard at doing whatever church work actually is beyond building kingdom centres of ministry excellence.
I would have much rather created even more lasting experiences, memories, connections and opportunities to foster our children’s interests and giftings than to have given it to such manipulative psychological shakedown artists.
One of the reasons I speak openly about our experiences over 25 years in 3 different “denominations”, Pentecostal, (Calvinist/Luther) Evangelical Reformed and Baptist, is because the doctrines of “unintended compulsion” (a common term use to ease their own conscience and assuage the ire of those who know that compulsion is definitely at play) around financial obligations are the same in many churches while a culture of cover up and intimidation keeps those who question fiscal accountability and many other issues at bay. Be careful people, not everything is as it seems.
God’s amazing resources are truly meant for investing in our children and real people (not ministries and programs) cultivating lifelong memories and experiences that foster deeper connection with one another while also caring for those in need around us directly without tax receipts or through legitimate proven organizations of our choice that don’t denigrate the character of those who don’t give, can’t give or don’t give sufficiently as Mark and many (not all) of today’s pastors do. Your hard work, blood, sweat and tears need not be going to grand – and definitely growing – salaries and grandiose $30M kingdom building programs.
God can speak clearly to you/us and your/our families without the need for, what amounts to overpriced cultures of codependent “life coaches” reaching deep into your pockets hoping (even insisting) you/we can’t live or figure life out without their “gifted teachings and ‘exegeted’ interpretations” through “the church”. Exactly where they want and need the church to be and “obediently” aka blindly remain.
Food for thought.
Any non-Christian can clearly see this for what this is–ABUSE. With all the secular resources out there on managing your money, no one needs to go to “one on one financial membership” at Church. Ponzie scheme. Just so SICKENING.
A(greed), you nailed it. 🙂
so you know they are building a ministry centre and of course asking all their campuses to support it–how foolish and silly a person must be to say attend church in calgary and support a ministry centre in Surrey. . .
Hi Todd, I appreciate your interaction and comment
What’s at play IMO is 21st century “gospel” business franchising at scale, under the guise of being a not for profit entity.
An entity mind you that because of the protections of separation of church and state, freedom of religion, religious practice and assembly can virtually say to people whatever nonsense they want, in whatever fashion of “teaching” they please and NEVER be publicly or legally held accountable for their words. And I am not only referring to what is often considered as careless bigoted hate speech around sexuality or those who disagree with them but simply how congregations are regularly managed and “taught” through “interpreted” fear and guilt indoctrinations of how to think.
Repetitively massaged algorithms of group-thought that leave people dormant, settling for the status quo despite prevailing concerns, so as to not “sinfully” make waves that may tarnish the churches public reputation or impression. Lest “god” becomes displeased with the lack of “submission” to “godly authority” in the church, as taught. Yet if ever any of their internal, in house “teachings” were ever analyzed by professional psychologists or career professionals or even former members, they would see through much of the manipulative bait and switch love bombing that is prevalent in many desperate and or codependent evangelical church environments.
Characteristics that are VERY difficult to see never mind pinpoint while steeped in and regularly drinking large quantities of a self gratifying, deceptively and fundamentally works based elitist gospel Kool-Aid.
There is far more hope in developing healthy, meaningful, interdependent genuine faith relationships with a few. A handful of a few trusted individuals or families outside of what is often these toxic tribes.
Tribes that begin with great intentions and eventually degenerate with growing financial leverage & clout, power, community influence and the resultant desire – need – to control their own narrative. While simultaneously dying a slow death from atrophy through neglect in practicing and paying close attention to their own “preached” convictions and moral expectations they demand – expect – of their congregant subjects.
That is the continued recipe of one failed church after another that are centered around “gifted” personalities who must “rule biblically” to maintain the mirage or semblance of a utopian “gospel centered” family of covenant, Jesus following disciples. If many of these common terms do not sound cult-like at their core, it may be important to take a second or third look.
Curiously enough those tribal followings were the number one concern that the Jesus of history spent most of His time addressing and confronting in the Pharisees and self assured religious men of His day.
It is definitely a concern that seems abundantly clear to you as they spread their franchise like model across Canadian cities. It often takes many years and several unforgettable experiences and prickly exchanges with “biblical church authority” (hogwash btw) to begin to see or want to see what truly goes on behind the veil or the literal smoke and mirrors for the scales to begin to fall. 😊
About as sick as it gets: https://www.village2021.com/
Problematic for sure.
Reminds me of what the SGM hub of “gospel excellence” and the once lauded “pastors college” Covenant Life Church in Gaitherburg Maryland hoped to be and what Crossway Church (a Langley SGM franchise – amongst many – required to “give” monthly to “the hub” mother church – often dubbed Mecca – to show gratitude, watch for that eventually) desperately hoped to emulate in Canada for the sake of the gospel. Many pastors of which after they regularly relocate wished that this would all just go away to be business as usual in their new found ingratiated “flocks”.
That was before the emperor was found wearing nothing and after thousands had already “given” – out of crafted compulsion – millions into what was a bankrupt system of carefully controlled abuses.
Similar expensive, overindulgence in utopian kingdom building ambitions that will eventually – for all who will give to this (his) dream – become an institution that will be too big to fail resulting in cover ups and suppression of truths at any cost while the Bible is “exegetically preached” weekly.
It’s for that reason and fear that particular churches feel corruptly compelled to not report serious abuses and criminal offences and resort to deal with issues “in house” within the institution often using inept unqualified means causing greater harm, revictimization, and literally untold injustices.
That is CLC’s story and legacy despite all the flash of their grande hub of “gospel excellence” back in 2002 where there were already significant problems happening beyond the ears and eyes of unquestioning, blissful, loyal and faithful “givers” and followers.
Be careful of the power and influence you crave, you will likely reap more than you could ever have imagined and by then it will be to late to repair the regret and damage to souls once that whirlwind has run its course.
http://www.kowalarchitects.com/covenantlife-church
Absolutely true. Wade points out a key indicator of pending future abuse is when current abuses are denied, overlooked or “explained” by acolytes dawning transparent blinders.
I had an interesting chat with this new pastor at village church abby, i was curious if their church campus too would pressure children to dance for candy. i thought maybe abby, being more conservative, would take a firmer stand on that. instead i had a typically frustrating conversation that went in circles and left me feeling terrible. of course. however, as i looked at his instagram my curiosity turned to anger at his performative activism. here you have Village Abby, in the middle of an enormous Punjabi neighbourhood, with more entitled white males at the helm. like as if they don’t know that’s a huge Punjabi neighbourhood. and yet, they continue with infuriating posts like this, patting themselves on the back at how “woke” they are: https://www.instagram.com/p/CBJYXnCpjB6/
Julie Roy’s nails it with what goes on in evangelicalism which sounds no different than what we were a part of for years in different denominations.
https://pca.st/episode/a0dc920e-0271-40f7-862a-d6fd34e3f702
I understand that on Good Friday Mark states he believes he is above being critiqued by “jerks” who have accomplished nothing and have nothing better to do.
Be careful who you allow to do your thinking for you! Mark’s “charisma” and hunger for narrative control is no different than Mahaney, McDonald or the raging Driscoll (and many others) who eventually had to pack their bags and set up shop in far away locations where they hoped none would know anything of the disasters they eventually were forced to flee. And where teaching the evils of “the internet bloggers and social media” is whole heartedly received by the “serious christians” thereby ensuring ongoing ignorance.
All you need to do is begin questioning what actually goes on within the bowels of Village Church or any “growing” church, financial expenses and who the “Lead Pastor” is actually (not figuratively) accountable to and who actually IS “permitted” to critique his sermon narrative and “interpretations”. Is it only those he “loves” that are “killing it” with their giving that have earned the right to maybe question him?
Mark regularly advertises how he sacrificed being a university professor to heed a call to become a pastor? Highly doubtful but makes for good theatrics around the notion of (self aggrandizing – which ultimately should be disqualifying to hearers but rarely is) “biblical” humility.
Believe me, after nearly 30 years, we’ve seen so much of the same, irrelevant of what church we hoped would be different only to be subjected to the same manipulative evangelical “projecting message and teaching” of “submission to authority”, “obedience”, “listen to only one voice”, “sacrificial giving”, and the ultimate impression management fear inducing distracting narrative of the projected sin of never finding yourself being labeled a “gossip and slander” by the leader or his enabling sycophants.
Without question this global pandemic has put an appropriate damper on the funding (compulsion) campaigns to build the aforementioned $30M “Centre of Gospel excellence”. That truly could be a sovereign “circuit breaker” blessing giving many pause to reconsider taking precious funds and investing it in their families and children in ways that are healthy and foster family connection and wise financial planning rather than believing the strategic projection that investing in your beautiful God given family is an idol that must be broken by “giving sacrificially to God” instead. Churchspeak for “prove you love god and give your money to the church (us) since god doesn’t need your money”. A welcome challenge to many who find themselves suffering from religious addiction and all the (empty) accolades and attention it brings.
Hi friends,
Just heard this defensive diatribe today posturing as teaching. And his taught disdain and expectations against “comments” may be enough to stop you from reading any further. That’s OK. I’ve moved my family out of these systems some time ago but will always talk of the cult(ure) that my family once knew that destroyed so many and caused so much mental anguish that we witnessed around us as well.
[audio src="https://tivc-audio.s3.amazonaws.com/9KeysToHappiness/9KeysToHappiness-4.mp3" /]
All I can begin to suggest is what was said to Upham “Hey Upham, careful you don’t step in the bullshit.”
Without even knowing, many under Mark Clark’s “teaching” are being conditioned and groomed to not question anything he has to say. After all that just makes you “unkind” and puts you in the category of being “a jerk” as clearly defined by himself. And if you do question, you had better have your ducks in a row and do it “biblically” as defined by the Village patriarchy otherwise you haven’t earned an audience with “me” (by the way are you giving because I view the giving reports as well). I can assure you, there will not be an acceptable way to confront men at the helm of evangelical cultures like this without coming to terms with having to simply leave them behind to their own devices, and sadly as long as they hold the reigns of power, they know that and expect nothing less than you “the divisive one” leaves and like Driscoll’s bus, the gospel machine just keeps moving “forward” over the collateral damage “for the sake of Christ”.
He is methodically and aggressively defining for his growing listeners, fiefdom and paying customers HIS definition of what is acceptable critique, line of questioning, and what to him and to you kindness “should” look like. And wouldn’t you know it, it looks much like a group of followers who agree with him and all he hopes for, “for the sake of Jesus and saving souls”, the justifying and most urgent matter that strategically eclipses common sense and supersedes or undermines anything that could ever be challenged that may tarnish their impression management (Wade Mullen terminology).
Folks, this is well beyond the realm of spiritual abuse, and through years of experience it’s easily feasible that so much has already taken place that has been buried, steamrolled or pushed out. Especially when you come to terms with how much money is at stake should those at the top of The Village empire have to give an answer to those he seems to be aggressively addressing in this “sermon on kindness and goodness”. Church leadership accountability should also take place in this life not the sweet bye and bye he eludes to in this message targeted against his dissenters.
Having seen this MO several times over many many years and in differing denominations and never really wanting to boil down my reasoning to simply angry, defensive name calling (jerks, losers etc. as Mark seems to resort to) but rather the logic and the language of abuse I unfortunately and fortunately became very attuned to, I would urge anyone to consider looking far beyond the words of compulsion of how “you should think”, far beyond the definition of kindness and goodness as defined by a stakeholder who has everything to lose if their reputations were ever questioned.
You don’t have to look much further than the slow train wreck that was James McDonald and Mark Driscoll to see the similarities of language and exercise of control, for those who don’t really pay attention to what is happening in evangelicalism because it’s all “gossip and slander”. It’s not.
At the point one is willing to disregard the instruction of how to think and behave coming from someone given a literal stage and platform (a platform they often are proud they built from “humble” beginnings in someone’s basement) at that point is when the living Jesus of history will begin to come into focus for us and our families and these angry “representatives” fade into the background where they belong and can do far less harm to souls and your family whether it be spiritual abuse of financial abuses. Especially harm to our children because we spent more time trying to conform them to a prescribed system of thought, sacrifice and service to an institution rather than learning the language of connection and love as parents and children that He intended for us. Loving one’s family well and putting one’s family first at the expense of (their) god (the institution) is not idolatry as they often teach in these systems of religion.
The notion that anything that “takes one’s allegiance” away from god (the institutional indenturing ideological definition rarely identified) boiled down are merely doctrines of codependency meant to captivate one’s thinking to believe that without this team and system of spiritual leadership (evidently put in place by god) you are incapable of living out or knowing God’s plan especially if it doesn’t include homage to the “gospel system in place for your life”.
Once again, “Hey Upham, careful you don’t step in the bullshit.”
And if you feel that statement is talking to me and I’m the one full of it, that’s completely fine. We’ve removed our family from these evangelical cultures years ago however I will always freely speak of the experiences we had and the similarities we see in up and coming institutions that look exactly like much of what we knew for decades. Gospel centered institutions that not only harmed our family but many families over the years through abuses of various kinds, anguish and mental health challenges.
God uses time and self awareness as great teachers.
Well people, wasn’t this week’s events and disclosure a most predictable outcome with God either not moving fast enough for Mark’s growing lifestyle needs OR God having severe degree’s of schizophrenia about His long term plan to build a “Centre of gospel excellence right here in Surrey”.
All you all really need to do is follow the money..
Scroll down to “Compensated full-time positions:”
Because names are not disclosed in these reports of those in full-time positions, it does not take rocket science or degree in forensic accounting to understand what is going on.
2016: $120,000 to $159,999 (for the 2 top dogs on the Village pyramid)
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/srch/pub/dsplyQckVw?q.stts=0007&selectedFilingPeriodIndex=4&selectedCharityBn=806421681RR0001&isSingleResult=false
2017: $160,000 to $199,999 (Increase from 2016 for the top dog on the Village pyramid)
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/srch/pub/dsplyQckVw?q.stts=0007&selectedFilingPeriodIndex=3&selectedCharityBn=806421681RR0001&isSingleResult=false
2018: $160,000 to $199,999 (Relatively the same from 2017 for the top dog on the Village pyramid yet still far more than the median salary of many “losers” whom are instructed to give “12% more” in this typical church setting and hierarchy structure for a $30M dollar Centre of GospelExcellence”.)
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/srch/pub/dsplyQckVw?q.stts=0007&selectedFilingPeriodIndex=2&selectedCharityBn=806421681RR0001&isSingleResult=false
2019: $200,000 to $249,999 (Increase from 2018 for the top dog on the Village pyramid yet still far more than the median salary of many “losers” “making us do technology” whom are instructed to give in this typical church setting and hierarchy structure.)
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/srch/pub/dsplyQckVw?q.stts=0007&selectedFilingPeriodIndex=1&selectedCharityBn=806421681RR0001&isSingleResult=false
2020: $250,000 to $299,999 (Yet another increase from 2019 in the middle of the worldwide covid-19 pandemic for the top dog on the Village pyramid yet still far more than the median salary of many “losers” “making us do technology” whom are instructed to give in this typical church setting and hierarchy structure.)
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/srch/pub/dsplyQckVw?q.stts=0007&selectedFilingPeriodIndex=0&selectedCharityBn=806421681RR0001&isSingleResult=false
With the top dog now abandoning “the call” at thisisvillagechurch.com after an apparent multimillion dollar purchase (now possibly up for sale with God being quite confused at His own plans) of the parcel of land meant for “The Village Hub”, now heading for even greener pa$tures in the lucrative, golfing and sunny state of California, I look forward to seeing what the 2021 CRA disclosure had to offer this 1 full-time employee that seemed to elude the cutbacks of a global pandemic against all odds who maybe found himself plateaued at a salary that just didn’t meet “God’s expectations and calling” for him and his family.
It’s unfortunate how the church is far too timid or gives into intimidation when they feel or sense a need (actually an obligation) to look at the numbers or follow the money because I’m quite certain God is looking at the numbers and waiting for His children to have the courage to bring these men to account for their greed and clever manipulation over years.
As one looks at the numbers and increasing salary over the years at Village Church you can imagine that there is really only one thing calling him. His “discussion” is merely a required exit interview and strategy disclosure to hopefully have the church remain intact and hold on to its loyal and “I love you” and “you’re killing it” givers identified in the above post.
It’s also very possible that this outcome is from the efforts of board members who were attempting to reign this man in. However unfortunately for the protection of the church after many years of experience with church environments such attempts are often a very rare occurrence if at all with church boards and their celebrity pastor for fear, compromised leadership, or power struggle infighting. The truth of which will likely never be known or transparently disclosed especially in the typical evangelical church cult(ure) of NDA so called “agreements” lest they lose control of the narrative and impression management tactics that keep the millions of dollars flowing into “god’s kingdom” whether at Village Church or any other mega-church model. Still waiting for the Bible chapter and verse where that practice is modelled from.
Let’s not forget the stories once told during the glory days before the arrival of covid, the ultimate test of motives and calling:
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4184294
Mark’s departure/exit interview can be found between the 52:56 to1:20:37 minute marks.
I hopped on here to see what you thought of them heading for California. So many at Village LOVE HIM, will the whole thing fall apart? Some of the other campus pastors are equally smarmy, I can’t see them coming close to the golden couple though. (to be fair his wife is really quite sweet) Like Mark Clark *is* Village. Why else would anyone sit in the dark putting up with the Max Headroom experience week after week? This is more interesting than Netflix. Write more.
“We figured if we could reach 200 by January 2012, we thought we might get some momentum and maybe pay me a bit of a salary and keep the lights on,” he said.
Bit of a salary eh? Hmmm, that’s one hell of a salary he ended up with if you ask anyone, especially those he loved that were” killing it” with their giving, certainly not “the losers”.
Village couldn’t feed him enough anymore when there are far bigger and far more lucrative evangelical oceans to swim in and you can posture as this harsh truth teller from Canada that outgrew those small thinkers and holdbacks that god’s going to have to figure out what to do with..
It would be interesting to get an honest take on their views now. Despite how serious an issue this is, it’s somewhat of a laughable predictability.
One just has to have empathy for all those “sacrificial givers” over the years believing, whether it’s at the Village or Bayside Church or any of these gospel industries, that they were and are carrying out god’s will in sacrificing their families fiscal health for a pot of ashes.
Grateful to be gone for some time to truly take care of our family first before enabled, entitled and endorsed hipster charlatan pick pockets that have infiltrated the church at large.
Yes, I agree, wouldn’t it be great to find out the truth behind the scenes? They are so into “Mark Clark” there, I think even the Care Groups centred around Mark’s teachings. Really fascinating to see what happens next. . .I mean he was the whole package right, the shiny pretty penny. I just don’t see anyone on their staff even coming close to measuring up. . .so is that land for sale? I got kicked out, or very firmly suggested that I leave, when I said to that young, rather smarmy Langley campus pastor that I thought supporting the “Vision Centre” was ridiculous. This is better than Netflix. This province is so ridiculously expensive to live in, for them to pressure anyone to give at that level is definitely without conscience.
no need to post this, looks like the Clarks became US citizens? that happened fast check out Erin Clark’s insta
And what do you suppose that tells everyone? 🤔😊