A Way Backwards…….Reconciliation through a Path to Forgiveness to find……. A True Way Forward

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Hanging by a thread that He might give courage to restore the cord……
Ecc 4:12 Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Based on discussion and suggestions, the entire up to date stream of conversation from Facebook with the exception of last names has now been copied and made as a record in one very large comment below this post started some time ago regarding these matters.

Comments, if you so wish, can be made as one would at any regular blog site. Comments will be moderated, and at times, be given a second opinion before approval. Ignorant or rude language and dialogue will be future flagged and labeled as spam.

At this point I have no interest or desire or time to create future blogs other than what has been in existence since shortly after the account was started. Thereby ensuring that I have no interest in traffic here only open discussion that may be of help to me and others and a desire to have us all together somehow make straight our crooked path with discussion and accountability.

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do to them, and not forsake them.

All this so that for me and many others who have shared similar thoughts, “church life and church itself as an organization” doesn’t become something we acquiesce to understanding why the world and many Christians want very little to do with at times. But rather see and be encouraged by transparency with us as individuals and fellowship that is unhindered by the acknowledged sinful and readily forgivable actions of former leaders, and yes even if they take no action, so that we might bring the lost in with brokenness and integrity, confident of their care and well being by the shepherds who watch over them to give an account.

The Biblical references are numerous to the harm caused by leaders that spawn division and factions due to undisclosed selfish acts, but they are equally and even more abundantly numerous in the HOPE that comes through repentance, forgiveness, mercy and grace given and extended through due process all afforded us through Christ. Due process isn’t necessary because nothing can be forced at all as already stated but how much richer we may all be with it. We/ I can go on pretending that our relationships are healthy and well with the check of our last Facebook status or the fact that someone from the other side liked my post, mistaking that illusion for reconciliation yet not be able to communicate beyond the hypocrisies of pleasantries, for some, in the marketplace (as a counselor so aptly put it) OR we/ I or some can taste of the rich, deep waters of sweet unhindered fellowship that once was, that, if honest, we all long for even having moved on to other Homes of nourishment and properly governed fellowships.

As stated earlier I remember being quite affected by what this man said well over a hundred years ago in light of how God’s people, the sheep of His pasture, are to be cared for, respected as vital contributors to your own growth and sanctification as pastors, and shepherded selflessly in a culture where quiet ambition and big dreams of being a church planting hub of BC are apparently at stake if we don’t “act” with our own understanding.

“I know the vanity of your heart, and that you will feel mortified that your congregation is very small, in comparison with those of your brethren around you; but assure yourself on the word of an old man, that when you come to give an account of them to the Lord Christ at his judgment seat, you will think you have had enough.” – John Brown a 19th century Pastor

With what limited information and experiences that have been stated already about the practices and maneuvers of the past 2 years and having been approached on separate occasions by separate individuals whom were not in conflict of interest positions as close friends, to no avail, while a wake of bruised, battered, battle scarred, near dead sheep lay behind you without public knowledge or disclosure or care in the hasty “Way Forward”, consider the following text some of which have been eluded to already:

Matthew 18: 15-17

15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;

1 Timothy 5:19-21

19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

This entry was posted in Brokenness, Crossway Church, Discernment, Disillusionment, Forgiveness, Hope, Religion, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

49 Responses to A Way Backwards…….Reconciliation through a Path to Forgiveness to find……. A True Way Forward

  1. Rory says:

    Having been asked a number of times, the most recent being Tuesday night, can someone shed some light on why Crossway Community Church office states it is “Permanently Closed”? This Google status first came to light about 6 or 7 weeks ago and in our naivete we presumed budget cuts had it relocate. With the sign still on the door and folks speaking to the contrary why would that Google status be considered true or acceptable if indeed it is not closed or relocated? Does anyone actually know if the office is closed or relocated?

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    Rory A pretty practical and honest question being asked around.
    October 17 at 9:41am via mobile • Like

    Kaz LOL hey anything to hide the truth
    October 17 at 10:10am • Like • 1

    Rory I have asked the permission of the previous commenters to remove the comments including mine as they address far greater more in depth issues than are initially raised by my question of the Crossway office being truly closed or relocated though possibly equally valid considering all the recent history, if a valid forum was truly provided this time to deal with things openly and transparently. That likely may never happen but the initial question remains, thanks.
    October 17 at 12:40pm via mobile • Edited • Like • 1

    Rose Shoot, I missed it! Hahaha
    October 17 at 1:36pm via mobile • Like

    Rory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2l15bKMZk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Has this now become confidential as well except to a select few? I understand it is not a very spiritually in depth question?

    Cricket sound effect (2)
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    October 17 at 3:07pm via mobile • Like • 2 • Remove Preview

    Kaz LOL Rory to funny ….. are you actually expecting an answer ?
    October 17 at 4:12pm • Like

    Rory Well I suppose I naively thought that someone would either confirm or deny the authenticity of an existing business being touted as “Permanently Closed” when in fact it seems very much active at that location apparently. Get ready folks for the predictable out of context verses and mined articles void of original words or thought. I believe it’s already happening from what’s been pointed out.
    October 17 at 6:54pm via mobile • Edited • Like

    Heather Strangeeeee! I don’t think it has closed
    October 17 at 7:48pm • Like

    Erin Cue the crickets…
    October 17 at 7:51pm via mobile • Like • 1

    Rory Thanks Heather, now we’re getting somewhere. Is it relocated then?
    October 17 at 8:02pm via mobile • Like

    Rich Why not just drive-by & see.
    October 17 at 8:43pm • Like

    Rory Bin there done that after work one day when it was first brought to light. No for lease sign, and name still up on the front door, but seemed like they could have moved.
    October 17 at 8:54pm via mobile • Edited • Like

    Lane Crossway Church office is still open.
    October 17 at 11:08pm • Like • 1

    Rory Thanks Lane, has the office relocated though? Which is what is indicated online, if not closed at that location then seemingly relocated? And if no change in location then why the online status change? A status that changed about a month and a half ago. Thanks again for clearing this up.
    October 17 at 11:18pm • Like

    Rory Safe to say that it hasn’t relocated either eh? Thereby leaving a church with a recently deliberately updated online status as untrue and possibly misleading, correct or incorrect?

    Consider the following proclamation presented a while back:

    “Of all work done under the sun religious work should be the most open to examination. There is positively no place in the church for sleight of hand or double talk. Everything done by the churches should be completely above suspicion. The true church will have nothing to hide.” — A.W. Tozer, Of God and Men

    Believe me, in business, family and life I’ve worn and continue to wear my share of having and needing to take ownership of my “sin”. Much of which some of you men know of and encouraged responsible ownership. So please no speck and log quotes here please.
    October 18 at 3:42pm via mobile • Like

    Heather How about one of these three scenarios: 1. they planned to close and then didn’t. 2. They were hacked and can’t get back in to change it. 3. The google account was opened by someone from Redemption Hill and they finally realized this and shut down the account?

    Or not. Just speculating.
    October 18 at 5:56pm via mobile • Unlike • 1

    Ian The office is open, the Crossway link and address info are correct on the Google listing, so anyone who really wants clarification is able to contact the office. The status makes sense only if the current leadership does not have control over the original Google account. Google controls the status categories, so maybe this was the only option they had?
    October 18 at 10:47pm • Like

    Lane It’s good to see people caring about Crossway.
    October 18 at 10:50pm • Unlike • 2

    Rory The status at one point was a normal listing showing, as with any business, address and location then recently it changed to permanently closed or relocated. This was the only option for what? Lane, surely you can’t possibly be serious with that comment and you must obviously know the implications of such a statement? I suppose this is what happens when we chose not to engage mentors to question and challenge their current and historic actions as men as well as their use of the pulpit. When we are malaised into thinking that we can’t approach or touch God’s anointed or leaders take serious offense to having their sermons and actions questioned, there may be just may be an underlying crisis of leadership at hand. I was looking to understand why “they” would change or allow to stand a status online that now obviously is not true, thanks for clarifying. As you were folks, let the silence continue…..although generally speaking silence is not good.
    October 19 at 7:55am via mobile • Like

    Ian Google and the original account holder are the only ones who have full control over Google listings. I was saying that if the original account holder is no longer at Crossway, that person still has full “admin” control over the listing, which means no one currently at Crossway could “change or allow to stand” the status of the account. They could submit a request to Google, but Google controls what status is placed on the listing. Like I said, anyone who really wants clarification can contact the office. It’s not an issue of silence; it’s an issue of asking the right people.
    October 19 at 3:51pm • Like

    Rory Being that you weren’t in the room when some of the most unbelievably absurd and outrageous things and claims took place, I suppose that is a reasonable explanation. I would recommend then finding this individual and/ or straightening things out at Crossway so things appear truly as they are, especially in this critical world of online self promotion. I can tell you that whoever it is took this action about 7 or 8 weeks ago. That would be a good place to start, if that really is what you’re suggesting may have happened. I suppose if they are now working on it should change back to reflect the facts soon. Thanks Ian.
    October 19 at 5:03pm via mobile • Like • 1

    Kaz Could be true but how many seconds does it take to type ” hey the status is wrong, we are still there, we are trying to correct it”
    October 19 at 5:37pm • Like

    Kaz Ian maybe right about not being an issue of silence as I doubt something like “google status” was probably not covered in the “gag order”
    October 19 at 5:46pm • Like

    Rory I presume you are referring to the Confidentiality Agreements set in place Kaz to “protect the church”? Anyway if that truly is the case and Crossway is simply a victim, consider clicking the “not true” link provided as an option. Simple. See photo.

    What benefit would anyone have in changing or closing Crossway’s online business presence? Either way this kind of guerrilla warfare from very discontented people that would do such nonsense motivated by SATAN who HAMMERS all his dark plots in their brains,(to quote Pat’s recent posts) is simply unacceptable and unfair characterization against Crossway, I fully understand your challenge with people who usurp all sense of due process and respect. Very challenging indeed.

    You know, considering how the “New” Crossway came into being such online posts should really be better thought through and exhibit much more humility, knowing that ALL the men involved designed and could easily write the book on the How To’s of Church guerrilla warfare and you know that to be undeniably true.You’ve got to really be more thoughtful of others in your choice of words online. You simply can’t get away with this stuff anymore. It’s unconscionable. Serving your people in quiet humble servitude remembering that, as one of you spoke on prior to the “Church Plant” “we now are walking with a limp”, not because of God’s direct sovereignty, He had nothing to do with the ends justifying the means.
    Placemat where original Google screenshot of Crossway Google search revealing
    Closed or relocated with an option to click link “Not True”
    October 20 at 9:14am • Edited • Like

    Kaz It was not to protect the church ? Who ever said that to you is ignorant. Confidentiality agreements are created to hide the truth about a certain situation. Although some people are not allowed to talk about it any intelligent Christian person should be able to surmise the reason. The people involved had no problem with going against scripture to cause a body of Christ to be split. It was justified by men’s egos not scripture as picking the lesser of two evils. The same men who consider this evil as an acceptable means of solving a perceived problem body of Christ problem are now the same men who lead the new Crossway. And by this evil I mean my belief that anyone who tries to break up a body of Christ for their own gain. The purposeful attempt to hide the truths and timelines just increases my belief that it was evil. The sheople who now attend the new Crossway should consider this ?
    October 20 at 11:36am • Like • 1

    Diane Aren’t you glad that God loves us despite our imperfections? I see hearts softening and God working in powerful ways at Crossway. He loves his bride, of which Crossway is a part. He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith and He is bringing about complete unity, just as I have been praying. I pray that the Lord would enable any who have been wronged to forgive, just as the Lord has forgiven us. He is so gracious and kind to us, how can we not extend that same grace to others?
    October 20 at 1:33pm • Like

    Diane Here’s something a friend just posted that I thought relevant…… Nothing is wasted with God. Nothing. But that’s the key, isn’t it- WITH God?

    If I hold onto it, claim it as my own, refuse to release it, it gets wasted. If I become bitter and turn inward, blaming God and people, I make it about me and miss the opportunity. If I make it my story, my abilities, my strength and wisdom that helped me overcome, I’ve squandered what God could have redeemed. “Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs”- Jonah 2.

    God redeems- trades in bad/wasted/worthless…for good. For growth, maturity, glory, joy. That’s what he does. Specializes in, actually. The cross is a symbol of suffering and death. And not just death, but death for the worst. The dregs of society. There’s actual shame attached to it. It’s the modern-day equivalent of the end of child-molesters and rapists and serial killers. Yet…in Christ….God takes it and turns it into something every Christian glories in- our death to self and new life in Christ. God takes what was a symbol of guilt and death and redeems it. It becomes a symbol life and grace and love and forgiveness.

    Nothing is wasted with God. WITH God. That trial you’ve been going through? You’re going to go through it. You are always finishing a trial, in the midst of a trial or getting ready to go through a trial. You don’t get a say in that. But you do get to decide how you handle it. And that, in turn, makes the difference in whether or not the hardship and tough time is an ultimate blessing. Or just sucks.

    God redeems. Lift up your eyes. Quit complaining and blaming and justifying. Quit trying to run from. Or ignore, head in the sand. Run to…your King. Let him give you strength that isn’t yours. “At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them. BUT THE LORD stood at my side and gave me strength”- 2 Tim. 4

    Jesus. That’s your choice. Jesus and growth and strength and value given for something that sucked and was tough to go through and would have been wasted time. Jesus. Or…bitterness, complaining and whining, blaming and losing the grace that could have been yours. Choose Jesus. With God, nothing is wasted. WITH GOD.
    October 20 at 1:44pm • Edited • Like • 2

    Kaz compassion to see loved ones not hurt (again) is far from bitterness or unforgiveness.
    October 20 at 2:04pm • Like

    Kaz a good commentary on the current Christian cultural view of “bitterness” MANY leader write people off because the leader labels them as bitter and therefore irrelevant …… Its a long read but worth for those who prefer continued learning http://freebelievers.com/blog-entry/the-bitterness-phenomenon

    The Bitterness Phenomenon • The Free Believers Network Blog
    freebelievers.com
    A growing network of Christians committed to returning Christianity to its natur…See More
    October 20 at 2:14pm • Like • Remove Preview

    Rory Well said Diane, well said. These were the very similar thoughts many tried to tell them over and over. But don’t mistake or confuse addressing ongoing brazen conduct with an unwillingness to forgive or that folks are being unloving. That’s at times, many found to be convenient misapplication to keep folks from prying further making them out to be a pariah for daring to confront or challenge undisclosed motivates. Love is one blind beggar encouraging another blind beggar to not forget from whence they came. Correction, from whence we came.
    October 20 at 3:09pm via mobile • Edited • Like

    Diane “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” Eph 4:31 That’s an interesting article, but this statement is an unbiblical view: “people should be bitter about spiritual abuse.” I think instead we are to fall on our knees and pray and pray for deliverance, because the Lord always answers his people when they pray. The article stated, “For us to successfully prohibit ourselves from experiencing anger at any level, we have to remove entire circuit boards from our brains. ” I disagree with this too; anger is not inherent to who we are. The Bible says that when we confess our sins we are healed (James 5:16), and I’ve seen God’s powerful healing in my life as sins are confessed. When we confess our anger and bitterness and pray to the Lord, God renews our minds and changes who we are; he heals us. This is not to say that we mindlessly submit and don’t confront, and anyone who knows me, knows that I do confront when the Lord leads me, but we have to keep careful watch over our hearts. When we confront, we too are tempted. (Gal 6:1-2)
    October 20 at 5:03pm • Like

    Rory So much here Diane alas will have to respond later though. I believe the discussion is good. For starters.
    October 20 at 5:41pm via mobile • Like

    Kaz OH boy I may have to use Hitler as an example again LOL
    October 20 at 5:58pm • Like

    Rory Kaz I think I may get the analogy you are considering however we understand that there is no comparison with the degree of harm even though the logic of missed steps may apply. But the line of thinking may make sense. Provided it’s not misrepresented.
    October 20 at 6:17pm via mobile • Like

    Kaz “people should be bitter about spiritual abuse.” I think the author chose his words poorly here. Some common definitions of bitterness are difficult or distasteful to accept, admit, or bear Also resulting from or expressive of severe grief, anguish, or disappointment. try using these words in place of the bitterness. I believe the author was trying to point out that we should have these attitudes towards spiritual abuse.
    October 20 at 6:48pm • Like

    Kaz The article stated, “For us to successfully prohibit ourselves from experiencing anger at any level, we have to remove entire circuit boards from our brains. ” I disagree with this too; anger is not inherent to who we are……. WOW there is an awesome theological discussion waiting to happen there
    October 20 at 6:49pm • Like

    Kaz Rory you know I like using Hitler as the extreme end of a point of discussion. In this area I was thinking how would you apply Eph 4:31 to Hitler ?
    October 20 at 6:56pm • Like

    Kaz I still think the whole bitterness thing is not apart of this conversation. If full restoration of all involved was not the ultimate goal then why would dozens of God fearing men waste their time and prayers on such things ? I also admit I do not know biblically what to do when there is continued sin that effects multiple people I don’t like the idea of tolerating sin in the ones I care about
    October 20 at 7:08pm • Like • 1

    Rory I remember being quite affected by what this man said well over a hundred years ago in light of how God’s people, the sheep of His pasture, are to be cared for, respected as vital contributors to your own growth, and shepherded selflessly in a culture where quiet ambition and big dreams “for God” are apparently at stake if we don’t act with our own understanding.

    “I know the vanity of your heart, and that you will feel mortified that your congregation is very small, in comparison with those of your brethren around you; but assure yourself on the word of an old man, that when you come to give an account of them to the Lord Christ at his judgment seat, you will think you have had enough.” – John Brown a 19th century Pastor

    On this note of bitterness and unforgiveness which definitely has true application but unfortunately is used, abused and often leveled against individuals who dare speak up, not about the color of the new carpet in the church or the length of the worship music and so on, but dare to speak up about serious matters of character, intent, motive, words spoken, and the like. Core issues of the heart that really matter and are woven all through the scriptures and encapsulate the trusted relationship God gives His genuine select shepherds who watch over, feed and guard the vulnerable integrity (note I did not say gullible) of HIS sheep. Remembering that pastors also should recognize fact that they are also labeled as sheep with the same unglamorous characteristics that descriptive connotates.

    I suppose as you mentioned Diane, that there could very well be folks at the time that went around saying that Jesus was simply bitter and unforgiving towards the money changers, or that David was unloving and bitter against Goliath or even that God was unwilling to just forgive Pharoah and is thereby culpable of being or not walking in love. These would be absurd and offensive misapplications of truth, correct? So likewise is the notion that people who question deeply are bitter and angry because they just won’t let you simply do what you feel you need to do, rubber stamped by clearing one’s conscience at the expense of all others. We must also address at this point with extreme prejudice the ruse of “Gossip and Slander” in these very specific crisis situations that simply seeks to isolate people from communicating about clear undeniable serious matters right before your eyes coupled with a very real fear of being out of favor for speaking about the obvious as one tries to process the inconceivable. With regards to something not packaged and presented in a loving way that may have been more effective in getting ones attention while injury is all around, let’s not even go there using the same logic and examples above. We’re men and adults not children that need and require such considerations.

    All is not lost as I’m also learning in many arenas, ever, there are remedies to rectifying severely faulty foundations that are affecting the existing structure being built, chances to restart false starts so as not to risk being disqualified that the race may be finished well. But it takes men of great humility unwilling to accept and wave the victim banner to go back and break the old faulty foundation to set true and proper footings and begin to repour and reset on truly broken ground, or return to the starting line to make a proper attempt at starting well and are willing to serve without unreferenceable online self promotion or fanfare unrelated to financial need or desperation. Men some may not follow anymore but can fully respect by making straight this particular path.

    Because as John Brown states in regards to the gravity and hope of the matter “…… when you come to give an account of them to the Lord Christ at his judgment seat, you will think you have had enough.” Small and true with steady growth seems to be good rather than a rush for fast, bulk growth on faulty foundations which ought to be suspect.
    October 21 at 10:30am via mobile • Edited • Like

    Rory The health and well being of new and future converts and genuine disciples hinges on the integrity of this issue and the missed steps of this process. We have to be able to or begin to connect the dots between biblical truth and the integrity of the dignity and psychology of the created soul, regenerated or not. Quoted verses out of context and the mined articles and quotes of others seems to indicate that is not happening. Although it is not necessarily wrong or bad but it seems to be an indicator.
    October 21 at 9:39am via mobile • Edited • Like

    Lin Ok the ? was have they relocated or closed…guess I am missing something here…. this maybe addressed better another way instead of subtley lead one into conversation that has nothing to do with the location address.
    October 21 at 10:59am • Like

    Diane You made some good points Rory. I’m not saying that all people who question are bitter, but that we have to carefully guard our hearts against it, as I’m aware that confronting such a big issue accompanies big temptation. I respect you as a brother in the Lord and I know that you love Him.
    October 21 at 11:15am • Edited • Like

    Rory Lin, the question and intention is proper representation and truth as a church, regarding the online status when it has neither closed nor relocated, so why the change 2 months ago? Is it simply because of a couple of reviews that, as with any other business or with BBB, are unfavorable rather than addressing them or leaving them to stand? If you trace the discussion, I’ve even removed comments that were initially unrelated. There is only so much scrubbing one is willing to do.
    October 21 at 11:29am via mobile • Like

    Rory Lin, and no, they have neither moved nor relocated from all that’s been said here but apparently someone is doing this to them.
    October 21 at 11:32am via mobile • Like

    Rory Diane I’ll say this, that the very real practices and tactics described above that have been the real experience of many, have made many including me question if a real love for Christ even exists within us. That’s how effective these team strategies and tactics were in getting around the “Sanballat’s and Tobiah’s” of the day. A series very few if any questioned it’s timing and intent. For many, thankfully and hopefully for all a short lived period of time and experience. Very very damaging.
    October 21 at 12:00pm via mobile • Edited • Like

    Diane Praying for healing. Sorry Rory.
    October 21 at 2:11pm • Like

    Rory Although the apology is authentically appreciated: 1. There are many others…. 2. It’s not yours to own. All the pastors and supporting elders should be initiating this not you. Thanks Diane, it’s not that difficult to fix.
    October 21 at 2:20pm via mobile • Like • 1

    Rory And for the record Facebook and it’s illusion of genuine reconciliation is not the venue at all, based on many interactions in person with folks who would attest to that, in case that may be a misguided consideration. Not referring to you Diane and your comment at all.
    October 21 at 2:32pm via mobile • Like • 1

    Jason After reading through the comments on this post it seems that Lin has noticed the same theme that I did. The conversation changed. I noticed that there seems to be a number of people who have been significantly and adversely affected (with deep hurt) over how things happened over the last few years. Diane, you are right that people should do their best to guard against the temptation towards bitterness, but all the while the deep hurt remains.

    How do they deal with forgiveness and reconciliation? Forgiveness and reconciliation are not just a switch that you can turn on and all is well, they are the result of the Holy Spirit’s work mixed with our efforts to forgive, be forgiven, and be reconciled to one another. These issues have obviously been significant enough to damage relationships, they have in some cases caused divisions and factions in defence of each ones version of “sinful” events on all sides and making any future interactions to be somewhat uncomfortable and lacking the degree of depth even close friends may once have had. Due to those implications they are not easily overlooked and moved on from.

    Does anyone know if there is currently a process in place (with all pastors), by which those adversely affected can begin to deal with the past in an effort to have genuine reconciled relationship? Maybe those pastors are unaware of the people who are hurting, and need to be informed or maybe they themselves are hurting and need to reach out, and as Rory said, begin to make this right. I can’t imagine any pastor would want a member of their flock (past or present) to be hurting based on interactions with them.

    Maybe the conversation did drift away from the original question but it has brought a topic and a need to light, the need for a process to begin reconciliation for all those who need it.
    October 21 at 5:27pm • Edited • Unlike • 5

    Taunya Unfortunately or fortunately… It’s only by the work of the Holy Spirit that either parties can move on. Dealing with your own heart is all you can do. We can’t force others to repent and turn if we ourselves haven’t done just that. The Holy Spirit it at work and his plan is sometimes hidden.
    October 21 at 3:35pm via mobile • Like • 4

    Rory I don’t believe anyone is or can force anything or anyone to actions that only, as you say, is the Holy Spirit’s work. However we are created with a mind, thoughts and an ability to communicate with one another so that through dialog and transparent discussion, the Holy Spirit can actually work in and through all of us. How else are we to expect the Spirit to work void of transparent communication?
    October 21 at 3:57pm via mobile • Like • 1

    Taunya Yes voice your concerns to the appropriate parties, once you’ve done that that’s all you can do. I know it sucks and it wasn’t gone about the right way (I’m my opinion). But once you’ve done that there’s nothing more you can do but but go around in circles wanting a certain outcome. Just concerned that you’ve parked here and aren’t letting the Holy Spirit heal you. Justice isn’t yours to be had, that belongs to The Lord. Leave it in his hands and lead your family in a life of forgiveness.
    October 21 at 4:05pm via mobile • Unlike • 2

    Rory That, Taunya is excellent advice and you very much sound like your mom which is good. Frankly this discussion is also very good to see that the denial doesn’t continue and transparency is finally taking place and being acknowledged. We can’t go on pretending or denying and never moving on to acknowledging. Obviously many of you moved on from what you believed to be certain at one point for clear specific reasons and so did we. Such is life and you are the wiser now.
    October 21 at 4:54pm via mobile • Like

    Diane Prayer moves mountains.
    October 21 at 5:22pm • Unlike • 1

    Lin Thanks for the compliment. I thank God for filling her with the Holy Spirit and wisdom from above.
    October 21 at 5:45pm • Unlike • 1

    Rory I agree with most of what you said Taunya, but definitely not all though because we ought not see destruction all around us and possibly be as Cain stating “am I my brothers keeper?”. Christendom is challenging enough without adding that perspective to our care for one another or that of the passers by in the Samaritan story. Once again, it is not an indication of a lack of forgiveness or choosing not to “move on”. Things are not that cut and dry or maybe what I mean is that it’s not that nonchalant if considering others.
    October 21 at 8:04pm • Edited • Like

    Taunya But what are you doing about it? Have you gone to the pastors yourself and voiced your concerns, hurts and grievances? I’m not sure what you are aiming to achieve by talking about it on FB or with others? Once you’ve talked with the parties that’s all you can really do. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit. I know it’s not as “cut and dry” and The Lord clearly has you on a journey here and is seeking to reveal more of himself to you, but I’m just concerned as to how you are going about it. Forgiveness is a gift that only God can grant you. I pray that he gives it to you.
    October 21 at 7:12pm via mobile • Like

    Diane 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. 1 Timothy 5:19-21
    October 21 at 9:37pm • Unlike • 1

    Kaz Hitler maybe too harsh so how about this example? A man abuses your child sexually, you find out and confront him but he says he did nothing wrong so you forgive him and “move on”……. LOL OK OK please don’t hit me with the Ban Hammer!!!!! Sorry but it’s hard!
    October 21 at 9:41pm • Like

    Kaz How does the Holy Spirit work anyways? According to what some have said we do nothing and just let the Holy Spirit do its work? What does that mean?
    October 21 at 9:43pm • Like

    Kaz and before I get Ban Hammered replace the word sexually with spiritually then think about it
    October 21 at 9:46pm • Like

    Diane Although I respect our pastoral team and do think that the Lord is working through them, I guess I can’t show partiality or favoritism, I must obey the Word of God in 1 Timothy 5:19-21. I agree with you Kaz and Rory, the church split was definitely a sin on the part of our leaders. It was not God’s desire for the church. In John 17, Jesus prayed, “May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” Jesus prays for unity throughout John 17, while dissension is the opposite of unity. In Romans, dissension is listed among other evils, like adultery. Rm 13:13-14 says, “So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.” The biggest danger with disunity is that people fall away, as is implied in John 17:12, while unity produces in us the full measure of joy (17:13). So I’ve been praying for complete unity for months now. Would you all join me? I know that with God all things are possible.
    October 21 at 10:44pm • Unlike • 1

    Kaz 1 Timothy 5:19-21 is a lot for one night. It’s very appropriate though.
    October 21 at 10:54pm • Like

    Rory Consider Matthew 18:15-17a on what grounds was anyone going to be able to bring anything “to the church” when they controlled the pulpit and managed The City and monitored apparently what was happening at Caregroups. I’m not making any of this stuff up at all and it’s known by them and the few that tried in futility and walked away during and after the church plant understanding that would be the beginning of divisive factions affecting years of endearing relationships. Neither am I opposing them.
    Yesterday at 6:24am via mobile • Edited • Like • 2

    Rory And as I’d mentioned in the 1st Anniversary of a Church Plant record, it seems that only in the church can such tactics take place without concern for due process, respect and accountability, being that the word of God can afford those who misuse it the ability to induce guilt in the hearts of it’s hearers when good biblical truth is turned upside down and inside out for reasons that don’t exactly seem right and you can’t put your finger on it but “what do I know, no one else seems to be concerned”. The hoped and “mature” expectation is exactly what has been proposed already which is to walk away, get over it, and forgive, all true but miss the point that something serious has taken place and the Bible speaks directly to these activities and they ought to be brought “before the church”. Nehemiah was a very convenient truth after a known deceptive or at least known to be questionable church plant that sets out to rebuild walls and deals effectively with descenders and detractors like the Sanballat’s and Tobiah’s from both within and outside as well. Where to go from here? Suggestions seem to have been made earlier but honestly for both churches leaders involved in this charade, it’s about time to take responsibility so you don’t have people defending varied version of your victim impact story while the “building” continues seemingly unimpacted by the damage that has taken place to the Body of Christ. But as stated earlier by some we can move on with a clear understanding and continue through the process of forgiveness or we can face this head on not seeking to explain the ridiculous nuances of known sin but add to forgiveness, genuine heart felt reconciliation with each of you as pastors not the illusion of reconciliation afforded by Facebook likes, comments and posts.
    13 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like

    Rory Diane it’s not about the specifics or showing the stains it’s more about the tactics employed and acknowledging the laundry exists and taking responsibility for it. And please don’t be mistaken to think this is about me and Kaz, there are numerous folks who don’t do Facebook or people we don’t have as friends anymore simply because we don’t do life together anymore or we disagree, so they can’t make comments. Just look around, who remains of that once unified church and why are so many gone. It’s not because of the color of the carpet.
    Yesterday at 8:57am via mobile • Like • 1

    Rory For anyone who wants to communicate or call me out or give me a piece of their mind but can’t here: alphaltd@hotmail.com and be sure to think clearly before you speak or possibly rant. Not intimidated by much of that culture or approach anymore but I will reason truth with you.
    Yesterday at 9:08am via mobile • Like

    Kaz Please do not assume its just Rory and myself. Some have given up, some have moved on saying I am not there so I don’t care, some are still in midst of great turmoil. Many do want to talk about it for fear. Apparently something happened 7 weeks ago so I guess its safe to say “it” is still happening which is the saddest part.
    Yesterday at 9:09am • Like

    Rory And BTW we did last night and will continue to pray for genuine reconciliation and responsibility as well as you guys as you are also daring to speaking up about the status quo.
    Yesterday at 9:41am via mobile • Edited • Like

    Rory This just brought to my attention:

    Well what do you know the status has changed. Crazy. And be sure to not attempt to say it was always like that. Well it would seem the initial issue has been resolved somehow by the same mysterious discontented individual? A great 1st step.
    Yesterday at 9:56am via mobile • Like

    Rory So why did all this have to happen? Dare I have the audacity to say or ask, is the spirit of Chist, the Holy Spirit at work to do real work and heavy lifting ?
    Yesterday at 10:00am via mobile • Like

    Kaz LOL too funny …. and Rory asking for “hate mail” LOL even funnier !!!! are the random blog & FB posts calling us stupid or Satan not enough for you. Hate mail or demeaning posts are kinda funny but its not going to stop me from trying to stop my brothers and sisters walking blindly through mine fields
    Yesterday at 10:35am • Like

    Rory No the general point is I don’t want anyone stating that I’m hiding behind the fact that not everyone can comment so therefore make your intelligent views known directly. Simple
    Yesterday at 10:51am via mobile • Like

    Rory I will answer 2 yet unanswered questions.
    1. Yes several of us did meet with them several times before, while and after one pastor was gone. Erin and I did however meet with him for about 4 hours on his birthday, I believe, before the deplorable April 1st send off. I would like to think the same was done by all but evidently unfortunately not because of some of the misleading or misinterpreted notions and fears already mentioned. Several direct questions were asked, some of which were met with complete silence all around the newly formed board. One answer I will never forget coming from the mouths of Christian leaders.

    2. The specific examples anyone may be seeking for the purpose of understanding are very easily answered but I will give them the respect of not openly discussing that here. There are some specific references on the record I’ve already mentioned once, lest someone say I’m promoting content. But I will lay out much of mine and the experience of others in person.

    1 Timothy 5:19-21 is very appropriate considering what is being breached.
    20 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like

    Rory Men, consider this prophetic message one more time, don’t allow a woman who teaches profound truth to be a stumbling block. I shared this with you 13 years ago never gave it a thought or cared to discuss it, then last year same outcome and now one final time. I challenge you all to hear it and not just hear it wear it. We all had to because of your actions.

    Brokenness…….

    Pride Vs Brokeness Nancy Leigh DeMoss
    Nancy Leigh Demoss teaches on brokenness.
    22 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like • Remove Preview

    Rory It has always been a stinger for me every time I hear her.
    20 hours ago via mobile • Like

    Ian What was originally “…not a very spiritually in depth question” sure became one. IF anyone is actually interested in an answer to the original question, I did what should have been done in the first place, and asked the people who would know the most about this. I can confirm that Crossway indeed does not control the Google account associated with the listing. In regards to the other technical questions related to the status, any questions can be addressed to elders@crossway.ca. There are answers to the questions that have been raised about the status, so anyone who is honestly interested or concerned can send an email. I humbly but strongly suggest an end be put to any more erroneous and egregious speculation about the status.
    15 hours ago • Like

    Ian Jason, I know the elders would want to know of anyone who is in the position you outlined. Reconciliation is desired by so many who were involved in all of this. I’m sure if you sent them an email they would respond eagerly. Peace.
    15 hours ago • Like • 1

    Rory Great job in straightening that out Ian. Noticed first thing this morning when informed. Glad you were only referring to the status however. It’s funny because many said the same thing in essence to them as well on numerous occasions “l humbly and strongly suggest an end be put to ……” . Now Ian, you appear to be giving deference to Jason’s concerns of people with deep hurt and issues regarding reconciliation and I know you likely don’t appreciate where the initial question has gone but once again being not in the room at the time, the elders very well knew that this would be the case and already was becoming the case because people wiser than you and I put together made that very clear. And their response I’ve made a record of and won’t repeat hear. I appreciate your attempt to reach out to folks though but we must be clear in bringing serious issues forward. It seems more research is warranted even some interviews of folks who did step into the fray and had to leave may help you have a more clearer picture. Without presuming upon them the bitterness ultra reformed outlook as they begin to speak which for some time has effectively kept and changed the truth into becoming a lie perpetrated by bitter individuals causing further and deeper factions and division. After all attempts are exhausted and it continues, bring it before the church, with witnesses as has been mentioned ! Period. There are numerous witnesses, go out and find them.
    10 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like

    Rory I would encourage listening to these again:

    http://thegodjourney.com/2013/05/17/the-culture-of-control/

    Then

    http://thegodjourney.com/2013/05/24/breaking-the-culture-of-control/

    The Culture of Control
    thegodjourney.com
    During Wayne’s recent trip to Australia, he sat down with a family who had recen…See More
    11 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like • Remove Preview

    Diane Rory and Kaz, I believe all that you are saying, and yet I choose to say no more right now out of submission to my pastors. I did say what I said out of submission to the Word of God, which is explained above. I really appreciated Dave’s sermon on Sunday, which explained that the Word of God is more important than the words of any pastors. Lord, guard our hearts from bitterness, deliver us from evil, deliver us from the pride of thinking we are any better, deliver us from judgement, for who are we to judge our neighbor? We have not walked in their shoes.
    10 hours ago • Edited • Unlike • 1

    Kaz So Crossway does not control their Google Business account ? But yet it changed mysteriously when we started talking about it ? and we are supposed to contact the Crossway Elders about an account they have no control over ? This is great comedy LOL ….. good to see things are still the same
    9 hours ago • Like

    Jason Ian I would agree that the heart of any elder would be one of care for the hurting, and desire reconciled relationships. My last comment was in relation to what has been stated in the comments of this post. I had two points and one question.
    – There seems to be some who are experiencing deep hurt, and it can be bad.
    -Forgiveness and reconciliation (where there is deep hurt) requires time and a process. (This has been a profound life experience for me over the last 8 years and was to address the “forgive and move on” idea)
    – Is there a process in place for those who want reconciliation?

    I want to be clear that while I did leave, I am not seeking to confront them or present my concerns to them again. I have been there and done that. I sat with those pastors many times, and they know why I left. However if they felt a need to initiate a process of reconciliation I would be happy to participate. I also want to point out that there may be others who are in need of a process, but this post was referring to pastors.

    I am not sure why you suggest that I should email them. I do not have a list of names of people deeply hurt.

    This church split affected everyone involved, all in different ways. I was not involved in any behind the scenes conversations or meetings that have been referred to. I was in the general meetings and around the church, and for people not to recognize that the actions of many (beyond just pastors) would have caused deep hurt seems hard to believe. You stated that the elders would want to know who these people are – they may not know all, but to not know who any of these people are seems hard to believe.

    Those who have relationships that are permanently damaged know it and if it is significant enough to warrant this process they know it! (and likely on both sides of the relationship). Both sides of damaged relationships have a responsibility here. If both sides desire it, than there is no forcing people involved.

    I know that the elders of both churches had entered into a process a while back. So, there is a process out there and my question again: Is there a process available now and how does one go about entering into that process if they want it?
    7 hours ago • Edited • Like

    Kaz Diane that is fine to submit to your pastors assuming they did not use any muzzling scriptures on you and that they fully answered any question you had for them at the time. Far to often people are silenced by guilting them with a few well placed scriptures. Just remember that the Holy Spirit would have no issues working through you and your husband. If that starts happening please do not let men with a certain type of character hinder that
    9 hours ago • Like

    Rory Gotta say Diane, “submitting to my pastors”, that is not normal and nor should it be, anyone viewing this ought to and likely knows that, and should take note. People are not to be treated as children for asking questions or having views and concerns you noted above. And as they stated and justified during the split, there is no covenant relationship as in a divorcing marriage so what does “submission” have to do with you and them in your questions and concerns you have written?
    7 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like

    Diane We are called to submit to our pastors and elders (1 Peter 5:5), provided that they do not contradict the Scriptures. I do pray that we would love to show grace. As to the one who said this shouldn’t be on FB, I would have preferred to have this discussion on the “Friends of CC (Crossway Church)” FB page, which was a private group that I set up several months ago. In a discussion I had with an elder, I made it clear if there was ever any questionable content they could let me know and I’d be happy to remove it, but …..
    7 hours ago • Edited • Like

    Rory Well then why don’t you do that talking openly and freely asking hard and poignant questions encouraging the input of others? As long as it is unlike the one time heavily monitored Crossway “the City” account.
    6 hours ago via mobile • Edited • Like

    Kaz Diane the FB group is a great idea but beware of censorship. Removing a post or thread just because someone says so with no explanation serves no one. There should be at least some kind of attempt to educate as too why, church policy, against scriptures, racist, whatever People who demand with no explanation need to be dealt with cautiously…..
    about an hour ago • Like

  2. Diane says:

    This is good that this is being exposed, for this is the most loving thing a person can do for someone else, to help them out of the darkness and into the light. I can attest that Rory is a godly man and one who was always an example to me of humility, as he was very transparent with others about his own sin. We were in care group together for about 9 years. Ephesians 5 says, ” 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.”

  3. Diane says:

    On my FB, Ben wrote, ” Diane, I really think you should delete this post. We, along with the elders, have already spoken to you about propagating these kinds of things that only sow disunity in the church. Please listen to us.” You are right Ben, the pastors warned me not to ever say any more. If I did, Dave said that he would humiliate me in front of the whole church, that he would kick me out, and you all concluded that I was mentally ill and should go see my family doctor. You used the Scripture 1 Timothy 5:19 as your reasoning: “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.” Can you please verify that this is correct?

    • Kaz says:

      is it possible Dave made that statement out of haste ? BUT since you are asking again it would be a great time for an answer. Hopefully the answer will come from someone with enough maturity and wisdom to not jump on the ”you’re crazy“ train just because the answer was not given clearly. Lots of answers can be hard to explain but only truly loving people will take the time to explain them in a kind non demeaning manor. Whatever that time frame that maybe.

    • Carrie says:

      Hi Diane, I am so sorry that this happened to you. I am sorry that it was said that you are ‘mentally ill.’ This deeply hurts my heart. I feel for you and your family. As the mom of 4 children who could be classified as, ‘mentally ill,’ this statement hurts. The statement insinuates that those who are ‘mentally ill’ do not have valid opinions, thoughts, or feelings, and should not be listened too, or taken seriously within the church. I believe that this flies in the face of God’s opinion of the ‘mentally ill.’ As Paul states in 1 Corinthians 12:22-26:

      “On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honourable we bestow the greater honour, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honour to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together, if one member is honoured, all rejoice together.”

      • Rory says:

        An excellent perspective and point Carrie. Thanks for sharing and bringing that up.

      • Rory says:

        I think that speaks to the degree of capable understanding within what I call ultra reformed cultures. A disconnect between Biblical truth (strongly proclaimed) and the dignity, well being and psychology of the created soul (care of the soul poorly understood and disrespected when inconvenient) spoken of earlier.

    • Rory says:

      It has been 4 days since this statement and question, will someone be willing to verifying her statement anytime soon? Let’s remember that silence can be it’s own form of verification, and if it wasn’t that this has been noted as having been seen before, the question of verification wouldn’t even be entertained.

  4. Lane says:

    Lane wrote, ” I’ve told you before neither this nor the blog are the appropriate venues for this sort of a discussion to take place. I’m sorry that you’re posting this in a public forum, I will not be part of this discussion here.”

  5. Diane says:

    1 Timothy 5:19-21 says to rebuke in a public forum. Which public forum is most appropriate? Perhaps the church if the leaders would allow it?

  6. Rory says:

    As I stated on the FB stream before all comments were deleted, I’ll state here again: (bracketed text are added texts beyond the original words with two amendments) Ben, I’m glad you said “propagating these kinds of things” rather than using the word lies. Referencing the word things is a great way to lay into an individual regarding what the blog states without going out on a limb stating they are outright lies.

    Either way considering the text below, whatever is going on over there at Crossway AGAIN that warrants this response (from you and the elders) surely you can model the similar example given by the Lord, the Savior we all serve, to extend grace and kindness and deal heavy handedly where it is warranted, (Crossway’s broken structure of authority).

    Ben, you are displaying on behalf of the elders at that church the very things, (actions and tactics) many are speaking of and experienced first hand long before you arrived and during the deplorable new beginning you were not involved in. (at the time at least that we know of)

    John 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

    (As in the reference above and Jesus’ challenge to the religious keepers of the law, it may be time to put those three stones, of humiliation, laissez-faire abstention of due process in church discipline, and convenient characterizations mentioned, down, and begin to ask “what was I thinking?”, “what were we thinking?” and better still “What is Jesus’ thinking on this matter?”)

    (Many have great respect for you and your family Ben, and the amazing work you all do, but this is not predominantly normal outside of Crossway remembering we were 14 years there. Yet it is a similar experience for numerous witnesses in varying degrees neatly hidden, with this likely being the most severe that is finally being reluctantly disclosed. Unless of course one finds the courage to begin disassembling and properly redefining the common unbiblical construct of Crossways view of “gossip and slander” allowing one to be able to do their homework and uncover some of the soft underbelly, that we might be more and properly informed since historically, transparency is not an option. It is unfortunate the toll it takes and took on many with me wondering and voicing at times in Caregroup whether I belonged in a mental ward as apparently you all implied of Diane, only to realize through counseling that I wasn’t crazy after all, rather something was deathly wrong.)

    The specifics of what “not to say any more” you may be referring to are probably not for this forum. But addressing the same tactics of fear and intimidation within and amongst the previous and, as it would seem, the current church leaders in taking these types of actions against people without representation or who may be trying to address something of a serious nature you may not like or want being addressed are a common thread numerous witnesses long.

    Where would be a proper venue? And I’m sure several witnesses would be there in light of the text that was shared 1 Tim 5:19-21, as long as they qualify as not being bitter I suppose by Crossway standards? That is the problem, when the pulpit is owned rather than respectfully open and transparent, as well as the means of bringing something to light about their actions behind closed doors since they opt to not do it themselves, there is little to no avenue except to be made to be quiet or “quietly leave”, as in a church plant, let’s say. No different, really.

    It’s unfortunate that these issues have been causing challenges for you guys and it appears there is little to no help from within other than being told to remain quiet from your comment. There is something not right about that Lane, that is not nor should it be considered normal or acceptable.

    Ben, are you willing or able, as the Crossway spokesman to verify her words and that they are fully warranted and appropriate actions commissioned through representation and due process, the words stated by David the Pastor of Preaching and Team Strategy, historically all things considering, including John 8:7-11 above?

  7. Diane says:

    Jody wrote: Sorry to hear about continued troubles at Crossway. Hope things can one day be resolved. I sure enjoyed my few years there!

  8. Rory says:

    Not sure what may be transpiring within the constructed Nehemiah Post Church Plant series walls of Crossway Community Church, but here is the ongoing log of events so things may be continually brought into the light rather than kept in the dark and undisclosed, posted on Facebook Oct 27, 2013 10pm ish by a commenter above:

    1″ Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13)

    Here is the writing on the wall just for you, CCC. Evil is upon us. If the leaders do not repent and confess all sin, the Lord will shut the doors. The Strong Man will be bound and taken away. All these things will happen so that we may see His mighty power, we may come to repentance, and be in complete unity, for our good and His glory. I pray that we would all love to show grace because of His amazing grace to us! The Battle is the Lord’s and God always wins!
    I have decided to take a personal retreat for a month, so tomorrow I will be shutting down my FB account for awhile. Peace out!
    Like ·
    (Out of respect and courtesy I have chosen to omit this current members name)
    Crossway Member: Your words are doing great damage to the body of a
    Christ. In my humble opinion you do not speak for Him. Shutting down your FB account is a brilliant idea!
    about an hour ago via mobile · Like · 1

  9. Rory says:

    Came across this balanced (I think?) interview with a professional Counselor, Director Dr Bob Kelleman on Spiritual Abuse about a year ago on our journey, and just reviewed it again. It was very helpful in educating and assessing, along with other research what was going on. I agree with him that at times loving correction can and may not be appreciated. But once you arrive at the final definition at the end of the interview, it ought to be more clear as to what may be happening that no one can seem to put their finger on but know isn’t right. Considering the many, many ex-members of Crossway and their stories both historically and currently. Also the current noted record of responses (only 2 really so far, 2 too many) to issues from even normal members is quite an indicator of their inability to connect the dots between Biblical truth and the careful love for His sheep and demonstrates a significant lack of both training, wisdom, and understanding. It is left to the imagination what it (having been through it myself along side several other men) must be like meeting with the elders over disagreeable issues still currently if their chosen leaders within the congregation display this kind and level of care openly for all to witness. If this is not the case nor a pattern, by all means please lets talk about it and reason together over truth AND practice, not simply pulling out convenient text without attaching and/ or comparing it to our practice of care for one another. Quite honestly for the sake of Christ and full disclosure this has to stop and you can’t possibly think that this can go on indefinitely without provoking a response, either way. It’s within you men to put an end to this knowing all that you are fully aware you’ve done and how you continue to handle people even if you feel justified in your actions. If you dare look around at the damage in your wake that very few were even aware of, nothing justifies this. And if you feel you owe no one nor God’s elect chosen people any account, so be it. http://biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/blogs/2011/10/15/the-bcc-weekend-interview-series-bob-kellemen-on-spiritual-abuse/

  10. Diane says:

    For the record, the pastors have spoken with my best friend and with my husband and informed them that I am going to be excommunicated on Sunday. I am not worried, because I know that God judges justly and He always wins. But I am sad to have my friendships severed for a time. The Lord’s will be done. His kingdom come! Steven gave me a prophecy weeks ago saying, “You have to die to yourself to really live.” It is being fulfilled.

    • Rory says:

      Has all this been approved by the appointed unelected nonvocational elders? Unelected at least when we were last put through our experience.

    • Daine says:

      It Fred, not all the pastors, just to clarify.

    • Rory says:

      What exactly are they basing their claims on that all the vocational elders have not transgressed significantly, admittedly yet unapologetically on record over the past 2 years? While yet retaining their roles and jobs. This blog is simply an attempt to have a record of conduct that the vocational and possibly other elders may recant their unapologetic stance or at very least become transparent as elders of the Church that people may not blindly coming in to something unawares. Back to the question Diane… because these are serious actions that ought not be thrown around lightly and meant for as Piper puts it “the worst of offenders”.

  11. Diane says:

    One of the pastors also told my husband in a meeting on Saturday that I wouldn’t physically be allowed to come into to church. He judges justly, so I entrust myself to Him.

  12. Diane says:

    Fred told Rachel and Lane that I would be excommunicated.

  13. Daine says:

    Just for clarification, I have made every attempt possible to reconcile. I have confronted one on one on the phone, I have brought another individual to confront, then I brought more people who I am certain know the truth, and yet they chose not to speak it. I waited months in one case and 7 weeks in the other. I wrote encouraging verses and put relevant articles on FB. Then I wrote and asked Dave for another meeting (even though I had been warned that any further comments would result in humiliation and them kicking me out of the church). I asked if there was someone I could talk to who understood the situation. He responded that I should just wait. So I continued waiting, and yet I saw evidence from all 3 that there was not true repentance. If one is truly repentant of their sin, they go and make it right and confess it. I have asked 2 of them to call, yet still haven’t been able to connect with them.

  14. Kaz says:

    So Diane was “put out of the Church” because she asked questions ? Who was allowed to stand as a witness with Diane ? I am assuming that this was not just knee jerk reaction based on the types of questions or to whom the questions were directed …… My hope is that it is because of some sin yet to be know to the public because kicking a member out when they are asking questions really makes Crossway look bad 😦

  15. Rich says:

    I have been quietly following these events. From my perspective, you have done nothing wrong. You have been speaking truth, and encouraging others to seek reconciliation. You are strong and brave. Good for you. I will be praying for you to continue to walk in His strength, and listen to the Holy Spirit. It is disgusting and wrong to have you thrown out of the church.

  16. Rory says:

    Mirrored comment: Rose says:
    October 28, 2013 at 7:18 pm (my apologies Rose for missing your comment on the dimreflections.com site, because of unreliability issues I’m only using that as a mirror site for this specific discussion while primarily using this site dimreflections.org)

    Diane, I am so sorry that you are having to face this kind of treatment from church leadership. I don’t know all the details, but from your comments even if it was partially true, it is wrong. Why are leaders/elders being so harsh with you? What are they afraid of? Harming the Body of Christ? Disunity? Haven’t they “been there done that”? Without truly considering the effects on so many of their sheep? And dealing effectively with whatever fallout may come out of it? And by their own hand and choices. I truly do not understand, but God does and He knows.
    My heart aches for you and for others that have been deeply hurt by the process chosen by the pastors/leaders of this church. One of the deepest impulses and values of Christian leadership is the pursuit of reconciliation at every level of community. God’s purpose in Christ is to reconcile all thing to Himself. The church is called to embody the message of reconciliation. This church’s leadership should be making effort to be breaking down barriers. I don’t see evidence of this, nor do I see any transparency in how they deal with the Body of Christ.
    I will be praying for you, others hurting and for the pastors and elders as well.

  17. Rory says:

    In the interest of clarity, ample time has been given as to explaining the reasoning behind what has now become a serious issue brought to the forefront regarding the excommunication of Diane. Comments given over the past 2 days have been held in the hopes of clarity and transparency regarding questions asked.

    Those within Crossway please seek to understanding the serious actions of these leaders (because it could be you next), who appear to be straining a gnat with regards to outspokenness, and questioning of motive while swallowing a camel with regards to initiating unaccountable divisiveness/ factions through a hasty and opposed church plant, ongoing censure, and suppression for unknown reasons other than possible fear of culpability. Somewhat off the topic of the initial post but relevant to hurtful undisclosed unbecoming practice at play for years and still ongoing, many witnesses long. These were the very practices many thought they sought to distance themselves from in disassociating from Sovereign Grace Ministries and their unfortunate legacy. Even with the new outsider at the helm the practices appear to continue in earnest.

    And so as not to act in censorship as has been a known practice, they will be released and posted by 10pm tonight barring transparency about why this serious action is being taken towards Diane and how it maybe be tied to issues that appear to have transpired 7 to 9 weeks ago that is yet unexplained as to it’s relevance to her excommunication? They will appear as comments predating this comment and will therefore be before this post because of the time they initially arrived.

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

  18. Rory says:

    For the serious effects of what many have gone through and may be going through including bystanders and observers consider the following qualified newsletter.

    Consider the characteristics of abusive leadership against known practice and where one may be within the 10 steps toward healing and find a way to healing by the mercies of the Spirit of Christ. This is NOT normal nor should be accepted practices.

    http://www.symboulosministries.org/august-2012-newsletter/

  19. Anonymous says:

    So who will be next? Diane asked some hard questions and is now being treated in an Orwellian manor. Would have answering the questions not been easier in the long run? In the past I have told people attending Crossway to remember that your pastors felt justified in the deliberate sin of conspiring against upper management ( the head pastor ) to fix a perceived problem. Men of that character are now going to excommunicate a person because they asked questions and went looking for answers. When deliberate sin is justified as an acceptable means of problem solving the path becomes very dark and creates many victims.

  20. Rory says:

    As is the stories of many who dared speak out against the insider collective group culture about conduct, and back room experiences actively and aggressively suppressed at Crossway historically, recently and currently as ongoing silence seems to indicate, here is a recent account of how part of Diane’s story has played out, and for once you no longer pull the strings and people can have a voice without fear or threats of “humiliate me in front of the whole church” or the equal and more relevant fear before God and His word of being complicit in violating our conscience on mass:

    Posted with permission on behalf of Diane and/or others for you to determine and ask the relevant questions:

    “In my devotions this morning, these verses stood out to me. “You mean he [Jesus] has deceived you also? the Pharisees retorted. “Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? No! (John 7:47-48) It’s interesting that the Pharisees were saying that Jesus deceived the people. Jesus also realized that the world hated him because he testified they were evil. “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. ” (John 7:7). This has been my testimony as well, I have seen evil working in our church. Then in John 7:50 it says, “Nicodemus,.., asked, “Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?” I have been told that I will be excommunicated, yet still haven’t been told a solid Biblical reason for it. Some have said that I have slandered the pastors. However, “slander” is defined as “the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.” I have made no false statements. Renee, Lane, and Ben can testify that I have spoken truth about what happened in the meeting with the pastors. Some do not like that I have spoken out on FB, and although I would rather have used a different public forum, I did not see any other options available to me. Although the pastors warned me not to say any more, I had to submit myself to God’s Word. 1 Timothy 5:19-21 states, “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by 2 or 3 witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that others may take warning. I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality and do nothing out of favoritism.” That is quite the charge; I take obedience to the Scriptures seriously. I have followed the steps in Matthew 18 carefully, so making it public is the last step. My “crime” is that I’ve declared publicly that the church split is a sin and that their treatment against people who speak out is very wrong. I have 3 other witnesses, Kaz, Rory, and Erin, who are testifying to the same thing and I know of more.I have also been told that I am accusing an elder without another witness. In this case they are speaking about another accusation, not the one I made public. So I think we need to look at the Bible again to see if this justifies excommunication. “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by 2 or 3 witnesses.” When I met with some of the elders and others, I did accuse an elder and I thought I had 2 other witnesses, however they failed to be faithful and tell the truth. Instead they gave way to favoritism and lied. Now I don’t expect the others in the room to believe what I’m saying. I don’t expect anyone to believe that or to entertain my accusation, since no other witnesses have spoken. Yet the verse doesn’t say, “If someone accuses an elder, threaten to humiliate them and excommunicate them.” It says not to entertain the accusation. Jesus said, “He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.” (Jn 7:18) I have been speaking to encourage individuals to repent as well as the leaders of our church for His honor. It is interesting that the sermon was on persecution this week, the same week that I am told I’m not allowed to come to church. “In fact everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” 2 Tim 3:12″

    What exactly is the formal “Biblical” grounds for excommunicating Diane? With your actions over the past 2 years conveniently undisclosed and untransparent behind Confidentiality Agreements as Christians and pastors (ALL involved), are you capable of rightly interpreting Biblical truth without self preserving bias or prejudice that are tied to things not discussed yet? There are certain kinds and groups of men, women and children you do not deserve to lead as these many witnessed and noted practices continue unaddressed shrouded in silence while the “sins” of the people are often presented and brought to you. Will all you men begin to address or acknowledge these practices or at very least deny them, so as to begin to put an end to the factions and divisions based on information never disclosed possibly hoping and presuming that gifting, personality and friendship, not truth and disclosure, is sufficient to “A Way Forward”? This is still the Church, the Bride of Christ, right? Or is this something else here?

    Consider the following beyond your 4 walls that Nehemiah built:

    “I believe it’s time to reclaim our moral and spiritual character, and Step Up….”- Dennis Rainey, FamilyLife Today

    Calling up leaders, men or women, to responsibility over serious matters does not equate to self righteous judgement, bitterness or that individuals making such statements are claiming to be without sin,let’s be clear on that and eliminate that ruse.(You all know many of mine that I’ve told my wife to call you men about over the years so that she had a voice.)

  21. Dave says:

    Introduction

    An excerpt from: Rediscovering Pastoral Ministry: Shaping Contemporary Ministry with Biibical Mandates by John MacArthur, Richard Mayhue, Robert Thomas

    “Ministering in the church constitutes the highest privilege. Nothing could be more honorable or have greater eternal significance than serving our Christ in His church. This privilege is also the most serious responsibility a person can undertake. Fulfilling this privilege and discharging this responsibility demands a comprehension of the church and its ministries that is correct according to God’s Word. In order to grasp the issues of the church and establish that understanding as a foundation for ministry, we need to understand a few basic truths:

    1. The church is the only institution that our Lord promised to build and to bless (Matt. 16:18).
    2. The church is the gathering place of true worshipers (Phil. 3:3).
    3. The church is the most precious assembly on earth since Christ purchased it with His own blood (Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:19; Eph. 5:25; Col. 1:20; 1 Pet. 1:18; Rev. 1:5).
    4. The church is the earthly expression of the heavenly reality (Matt. 6:10; 18:18).
    5. The church will ultimately triumph both universally and locally (Matt. 16:18; Phil. 1:6).
    6. The church is the realm of spiritual fellowship (Heb. 10:22–25; 1 John 1:3, 6–7).
    7. The church is the proclaimer and protector of divine truth (1 Tim. 3:15; Titus 2:1, 15).
    8. The church is the chief place for spiritual edification and growth (Acts 20:32; Eph. 4:11–16; 2 Tim. 3:16–17; 1 Pet. 2:1–2; 2 Pet. 3:18).
    9. The church is the launching pad for world evangelization (Mark 16:15; Titus 2:11).
    10. The church is the environment where strong spiritual leadership develops and matures (2 Tim. 2:2).

    The ten items above are precisely why I love the church and have devoted my life to it. Understanding those truths is the foundation of effective ministry. Unless spiritual men devoted to these realities lead the church, the next generation of churches will not be without blemish. I am concerned over a growing trend to produce strong natural leaders who know how to manage a business or enterprise but do not understand the church from Christ’s perspective. Their leadership style and substance is earthly, not biblical and spiritual.
    Some contemporary church leaders fancy themselves to be businessmen, media figures, entertainers, psychologists, philosophers, or lawyers. Those notions contrast sharply with the tenor of the symbolism Scripture employs to depict spiritual leaders.
    In 2 Timothy 2, for example, Paul uses seven different metaphors to describe the rigors of leadership. He pictures the minister as a teacher (v. 2), a soldier (v. 3), an athlete (v. 5), a farmer (v. 6), a workman (v. 15), a vessel (vv. 20–21), and a slave (v. 24). All such images evoke ideas of sacrifice, labor, service, and hardship. They speak eloquently of the complex and varied responsibilities of spiritual leadership. Not one of them makes leadership out to be glamorous.
    That is because it is not supposed to be glamorous. Leadership in the church—and I am speaking of every facet of spiritual leadership, not just the pastor’s role—is not a mantle of status to be conferred on the church’s aristocracy. It is not earned by seniority, purchased with money, or inherited through family ties. It does not necessarily fall to those who are successful in business or finance. It is not doled out on the basis of intelligence or talent. Its requirements are blameless character, spiritual maturity, and above all, a willingness to serve humbly.
    Our Lord’s favorite metaphor for spiritual leadership, one He often used to describe Himself, was that of a shepherd—a person who tends God’s flock. Every church leader is a shepherd. The word pastor itself means “shepherd.” It is appropriate imagery. A shepherd leads, feeds, nurtures, comforts, corrects, and protects—responsibilities that belong to every churchman.
    Shepherds are without status. In most cultures, shepherds occupy the lower rungs of society’s ladder. That is fitting, for our Lord said, “Let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant” (Luke 22:26).
    Under the plan God has ordained for the church, leadership is a position of humble, loving service. Church leadership is ministry, not management. The calling of the ones whom God designates as leaders is not to a position of governing monarchs, but humble slaves; not slick celebrities, but laboring servants. Those who would lead God’s people must above all exemplify sacrifice, devotion, submission, and lowliness.
    Jesus Himself gave the pattern when He stooped to wash His disciples’ feet, a task that was customarily done by the lowest of slaves (John 13). If the Lord of the universe would do that, no church leader has a right to think of himself as a pastoral elitist.
    Shepherding animals is semiskilled labor. No colleges offer graduate degrees in shepherding. It is not that difficult a job; even a dog can learn to guard a flock of sheep. In biblical times, young boys—David, for example—herded sheep while the older men did tasks that required more skill and maturity.
    Shepherding a spiritual flock is not so simple. It takes more than a wandering bumpkin to be a spiritual shepherd. The standards are high, the requirements hard to satisfy (1 Tim. 3:1–7). Not everyone can meet the qualifications, and of those who do, few seem to excel at the task. Spiritual shepherding demands a godly, gifted, multiskilled man of integrity. Yet he must maintain the humble perspective and demeanor of a shepherd boy.
    With the tremendous responsibilities of leading God’s flock comes the potential for either great blessing or great judgment. Good leaders are doubly blessed (1 Tim. 5:17), and poor leaders are doubly chastened (v. 20), for “from everyone who has been given much shall much be required” (Luke 12:48). James 3:1 says, “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.”

    Who is keeping Crossway Church’s leadership accountable??

  22. Rory says:

    With the question posed earlier if Crossway leadership is capable of rightly interpreting Biblical truth without self preserving bias or prejudice that are tied to things not discussed yet? After further consultation today, it seems important to release more qualified publicly available material for more questioning and accountability once further research is done.

  23. Rory says:

    Out of request and not being a principal player in these goings on and a threat of litigation, I have removed the image but maintain the record of the reported copied statement freely passed around and sent to this blog.

    “So saddened this morning to hear that a member of our church family is suffering the consequences of some very poor choices. Encouraged however by the persistence of David J R Smith and all elders in their extraordinary efforts toward the restoration of one who is resisting help. Grateful for men of patience and compassion who continue to care for us when we mess up.”- Stephen

    Shameful condescension on Facebook of all places.

    • Rory says:

      Apparent excommunication of Diane

      Post as expected:
      It would appear that this post made on Facebook today, of all places, would confirm that Diane has been excommunicated from Crossway. Likely the best thing for anyone within.

      “I know the vanity of your heart, and that you will feel mortified that your congregation is very small, in comparison with those of your brethren around you; but assure yourself on the word of an old man, that when you come to give an account of them to the Lord Christ at his judgment seat, you will think you have had enough.” – John Brown a 19th century Pastor

      • Rory says:

        Correction, Diane has faced some form of church discipline not in the form of excommunication as earlier noted by the information she shared prior to all the commentary ….confirmed recently. Good news and an answer to the prayers of many who have a grasp of what excommunication can mean if carried out without proper grounds.

    • Kaz says:

      Hard to say anything ?? the FB post seems to lack compassion for this perceived fallen person. Then goes on to uplift the name of a pastor and elders. Such a waste as the FB post could have easily sent out a prayer request for this perceived struggling christain and her family. Then instead of uplifting the name of a pastor the FB poster could have taken this opportunity to uplift Gods Glory in the situation and the future Glory that can be given to Gods name when the perceived fallen christain returns to the body of Christ. That is the ultimate goal of any church discipline, restoration. Its not to be used as a weapon against people to silence them or be used as method to control the people who remain under a leadership who felt justified in the deliberate sin of conspiring against upper management ( the head pastor ) to fix a perceived problem…….

    • KAZ says:

      The threat of litigation shows the heart behind the post. It was obviously not posted to bring Glory to God nor to aid the supposed fallen Christian.

      • Rory says:

        Not sure, but the 3 emails received as comments awaiting moderation so far as with earlier examples are in line with all that is being talked about here, and an indication of something very amiss and the ramifications of Confidentiality Agreements within a church.

  24. Rory says:

    Out of respect for this individuals request and presented with the threat of litigation because what I have stated that “apparently” seemed happened today actually did not happen or contains “material inaccuracy about today’s events”, I will be modifying the image above. My apologies, it would appear Diane did not get excommunicated today as stated and planned to happen, she may still be a member in good standing, so therefore maybe his words are referring to a separate matter with someone else.

    As suggested in the threat, I won’t withdraw my statement (5:03pm above) regarding it’s accuracy because I freely want my errors to be made clear without fear or intimidation, those days and succumbing to those practices are over for me. Can you then fill in what exactly was done with this person, if it was Diane? Many have deep interest and compassion to understand how someone who is being divisive within Crossway with it’s definition was and is handled?

  25. Rory says:

    This was just brought to light this evening. Be sure to check out the 7 new reviews which have been added in the last week, since the question of the online status of Crossway Community Church office being labeled for about 2 months as Permanently Closed and/ or relocated surfaced. 4.2 Stars

    https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=crossway+community+church&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&ei=w4B4UvLQLMKEjALHjYG4Bw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

    • KAZ says:

      Does this mean they do in fact have control of the status of their Google page and just set it to “closed” so that no one would see any negative or neutral reviews? If they did not have control and were not manipulating the online status then why suddenly spam the page with excessive verbiage? Social media has some very distinct quirks and just like in the movie about it Liverpool [2012] the concept of review spamming always has the opposite effect. If your going to review spam please learn how to do it properly :o)

  26. Rory says:

    In light of an encouraging discussion earlier this afternoon and the realization several have pointed out that Ezekiel 34:1-10 is very real and alive in corners of the church today, the Lord God Himself (the Good Shepherd) promised He will now take over and take care and tend to His sheep literally Himself through, obviously it would seem, very capable yet imperfect hands and shepherds who are willing to lay their lives down for their sheep and fight openly and transparently FOR THEM.

    A very encouraging text after all the unaccounting.

    The Lord God Will Seek Them Out
    Ezekiel 34:11-16 (The Living Bible)

    11 For the Lord God says: “I will search and find my sheep. 12 I will be like a shepherd looking for his flock. I will find my sheep and rescue them from all the places they were scattered in that dark and cloudy day. 13 And I will bring them back from among the people and nations where they were, back home to their own land of Israel, and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel and by the rivers where the land is fertile and good. 14 Yes, I will give them good pasture on the high hills of Israel. There they will lie down in peace and feed in luscious mountain pastures. 15-16 I myself will be the Shepherd of my sheep and cause them to lie down in peace,” the Lord God says. “I will seek my lost ones, those who strayed away, and bring them safely home again. I will put splints and bandages upon their broken limbs and heal the sick. And I will destroy the powerful, fat shepherds; I will feed them, yes—feed them punishment!

  27. Rory says:

    For those who may have posted comments here or at dimreflections.com in the last couple of days or so who have not seen their comments go up, my apologies. Contact me directly if needed and I will explain exactly what is going on in detail. It will be 30 days starting yesterday before your possible accumulating comments will be moderated and posted based on developments 2 days ago that I will clearly explain and speak openly about. Anyone and everyone with interest and input deserves an explanation of my action being taken. It is primarily driven based on an indirect possible culpable plea and appeal and a host of other issues before them which can be corroborated. Included in my 3rd party reply back to the leader was that a public meeting with ALL leaders, suggested by many, would be very much welcome and not off the table as a remedy for a True Way Forward…. we wait and see and proceed with life as usual. As stated, accumulating comments will be kept for future moderation.

  28. Rory says:

    Mirrored comment: Ray says: November 6, 2013 at 8:22 pm I wasn’t there for the split, but some months before, after a long struggle, while feeling unsupported by the pastors and elders, we left Crossway. The issues that we sought out the pastors to resolve we’re never dealt with. Thankful that God gave us eyes to see the hearts and motives of our pastors. Thankful that in His providence that God made us aware that we needed to move away from the “preach one way and act another” leadership. We saw the writing on the wall as we moved from the inner circles to the outcast because of our concerns and questions regarding church practices. As I have followed these posts, It is clear that the leadership has not changed. A church split covered by a confidentiality agreement. The utilization of the term “excommunication” on such a God fearing believer and the lack of biblical process. The deliberate, obvious manipulation and cover up of the Google Reviews page. The threats of legal action over Facebook posts. So sad that this has to happen in the church. When leaders, elders, and adherents have the mindset that ” this is my church”, (which is a very natural and humanistic way of thinking), they miss the mark. There is no room for saving face, no pride of ownership, not even a hint of possession – all of which detracts from the the Bride of Christ. Repentance and humility is the way forward

  29. Rory says:

    To the individual who chose to ask the following question through the blog search bar of which I only see, I will answer your question truthfully but I would encourage anyone to have the courage to make your comments official. 🙂

    Question: ‘why would a pastor say no to a reconciliation path’?

    Answer: Unfortunately, I don’t know. The pastors would be the ones to have to honestly answer that question. Sorry

    On a side note, within the last month it has been brought to my attention that because the very first comment copied and moved from Facebook to this post regarding the changing Google status of Crossway Community Church from being normal to ‘Permanently closed’ or relocated then back to normal then followed by a significant almost same day possibly planned review spamming, contained several Facebook comments that give the impression that I was having ongoing conversations with myself. Thereby apparently giving some individuals the impression that I may be unstable and possibly the added excuse that these matters shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    Here is the issue, there are at least between 5 to 10 missing and very controversial comments and disclosures that were being made by an insider that were deleted while originally on Facebook due to either significant fear and/ or intimidation OR out of concern of what would be wise at the time considering their difficult circumstances as noted above. This statement was confirmed within the last 10 days directly. By the time the Google stream was moved to this post as an initial starting comment, many statements were already deleted and unrecoverable nor remembered, whereas my replies to those statements remain. Through the screenshots often made by folks it may be possible to piece them back in but honestly they have only a small bearing and part to the serious matters at hand for this business.

    • Kaz Few says:

      a quick note about “why would a pastor say no to a reconciliation path”
      Only a truly self centered person would refuse such a thing. A person who has their heart on themselves would not be able to see that a reconciliation process benefits everyone involved and may actually fear the process because it will reveal their heart.
      It is truly sad that a pastor has said no to such a thing because in one small statement they have shown that they are not fit for ministry. Unless of course it is possible for a Pastor who does not have compassion for others to be a Pastor? Christ Himself took time to stop and care for the worst of us yet this Pastor is unwilling to make the effort to be a part of a reconciliation process that will benefit another brother ( or sister )

  30. Rory says:

    To the preacher/ pastor who recently attempted to contact me through the Facebook friend invite…. please direct your contact with me through alphaltd@hotmail.com if you didn’t see it above. Anyone for that matter who is unwilling, fearful or unable to comment is welcome to reach me there if you also didn’t see it earlier when the comments were far fewer.

  31. Diane says:

    It appears that I never answered the question of what happened about the excommunication. My husband removed my church membership before my excommunication date arrived, so they weren’t able to excommunicate me.

    • Rory says:

      Thanks for clarifying. We figured as much with the unfortunate and intentional Facebook comment brought to light made by the aforementioned Crossway devotee (Stephen) shared here on Nov 3rd as well as informational emails received from within Crossway. Many trust and pray you are experiencing the genuine Spirit of Christ and ongoing healing, peace and recovery over time having left that psychologically and spiritually unhealthy environment especially as it relates to children and healthy societal exposure and relationships that many are discovering even of late. =)

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